Helicopters are useless and dangerous!!
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Murica.
Helicopters are useless and dangerous!!
No..not really.
But I have had the "pleasure" of having to argue this point with some fixed wing people lately, and even a couple of rotorheads!!
Arguments like "they are useless because they are slow, and ugly" and "if the engine fails below 400' you are DEAD" came up with some regularity. The latter from a heli pilot.
In the end I chose to ignore the ignorance, but is this a common theme out there...or did I just stumble into the wrong place??
But I have had the "pleasure" of having to argue this point with some fixed wing people lately, and even a couple of rotorheads!!
Arguments like "they are useless because they are slow, and ugly" and "if the engine fails below 400' you are DEAD" came up with some regularity. The latter from a heli pilot.
In the end I chose to ignore the ignorance, but is this a common theme out there...or did I just stumble into the wrong place??
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
No deader than maybe an engine failure in a fixed wing under 400 feet. Given a choice I would certainly opt for the helicopter in that situation. No forward speed and a very slow vertical rate of descent at landing beats the airplane alternative.
The success rate would hinge more on the terrain and obstacles that one lands on and in more than anything.
The success rate would hinge more on the terrain and obstacles that one lands on and in more than anything.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
In the UK, one can rarely fly legally below 500 ft anyway. 
When I flew in the US, where most of our flying was low level, we regularly practised auto-rotations from around 400 ft. I somehow don't remember being dead after any of them. Or did the experience do in my memory, and am I now a flying ghost?
When I flew in the US, where most of our flying was low level, we regularly practised auto-rotations from around 400 ft. I somehow don't remember being dead after any of them. Or did the experience do in my memory, and am I now a flying ghost?
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Port Townsend,WA. USA
In the case of private ownership, I think there is a good bit of truth to the idea that helicopters are "useless".
Mostly because of the noise, the majority of owners could not base the heli in their back yard nor can a heli land in very many places in populated areas. Most of the heli flights are to or from airports for that reason (noise).
A personal heli needs to be almost silent like any automobile if wide use is to occur in my opinion.
The fact that a heli cant be safely hovered at 200 ft also limits the only reason one would want to choose a heli in the first place, the ability to hover low and fly slow.
Thats why fixed wing out number helis for personal use by about 1000 to 1 (just guessing).... and fixed wings are not really useful either if you really think about the problems of weather and lack of transfer from the distant airport to where you need to go.
For personal use, flight is mostly just to "commit aviation" as an old friend said.
I understand that helis have no practical use but I still want one as a toy.
As for power loss in the so called dead zone at say 200ft, is death a given? or is it possible to survive with major damage? Anybody have actual experience?
Thanks for your attention,
slow
Mostly because of the noise, the majority of owners could not base the heli in their back yard nor can a heli land in very many places in populated areas. Most of the heli flights are to or from airports for that reason (noise).
A personal heli needs to be almost silent like any automobile if wide use is to occur in my opinion.
The fact that a heli cant be safely hovered at 200 ft also limits the only reason one would want to choose a heli in the first place, the ability to hover low and fly slow.
Thats why fixed wing out number helis for personal use by about 1000 to 1 (just guessing).... and fixed wings are not really useful either if you really think about the problems of weather and lack of transfer from the distant airport to where you need to go.
For personal use, flight is mostly just to "commit aviation" as an old friend said.
I understand that helis have no practical use but I still want one as a toy.
As for power loss in the so called dead zone at say 200ft, is death a given? or is it possible to survive with major damage? Anybody have actual experience?
Thanks for your attention,
slow
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Ontario, Canada
We used to do turning autos at 250 in the 206. Of course, too many of them were to overshoot and a couple thundered in but everyone walked away. I think terrain and obstacles would be the biggest factor.
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From: USA
Safe autorotations at low level are all about speed. If you have height you can gain speed. If you have speed it really does not matter what height you are when you enter an autorotation. 50' would be fine as long as you have forward speed.
A hovering autorotation with no airspeed is a different matter. The Bell 47 is great up to 20' or so, the 206 is better than that.
I presume reference to the "dead zone" is the height/velocity curve. I do wish people wouldn't call it the dead zone. I do lots of autorotations every day in my job and I have never felt that I'm risking death.
Chopperpilot47
A hovering autorotation with no airspeed is a different matter. The Bell 47 is great up to 20' or so, the 206 is better than that.
I presume reference to the "dead zone" is the height/velocity curve. I do wish people wouldn't call it the dead zone. I do lots of autorotations every day in my job and I have never felt that I'm risking death.
Chopperpilot47
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From: Canada
below 400' an engine failure will kill you.
Joined: May 2002
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From: Downeast
Chopper pilot....
High speed at too little height can also be a problem....back in another life...in a land far far away...when among God's Own Lunatics, we used to return with green streaks on the chin bubbles and rice straw hanging from the landing gear and cargo hook.....from flying at minimum height.....an engine failure could have put us onto the ground long before we could use a cyclic climb to both slow and ascend. I always thought I would yank the collective and follow with cyclic....hoping Nr droop could be reversed by a hard flare type deceleration....then proceed with a "normal" autorotation. That kind of flying was trading one set of perils for another....
High speed at too little height can also be a problem....back in another life...in a land far far away...when among God's Own Lunatics, we used to return with green streaks on the chin bubbles and rice straw hanging from the landing gear and cargo hook.....from flying at minimum height.....an engine failure could have put us onto the ground long before we could use a cyclic climb to both slow and ascend. I always thought I would yank the collective and follow with cyclic....hoping Nr droop could be reversed by a hard flare type deceleration....then proceed with a "normal" autorotation. That kind of flying was trading one set of perils for another....
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: two feet AGL or wherever there's smoke
well having had 3 fixedwing engine faliures all below 150ft , i'm confident that as a green rotorhead and when my "numbers up" as far as engine faliure in a heli goes (and knowing me it will be below 150ft!) my ongoing nagging to my instructor to continually practicse autos with me will pay off!
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,635
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
slowrotor,
You're demanding a lot.
low "noise"
"base the heli in their back yard"
"hover low"
"fly slow"
"lack of transfer from the distant airport to where you need to go"
no "dead zone"
Fortunatly there is a free lunch!
` . ` . ` . ` . ` . ` . ` . ` .
Dave
You're demanding a lot.
low "noise"
"base the heli in their back yard"
"hover low"
"fly slow"
"lack of transfer from the distant airport to where you need to go"
no "dead zone"
Fortunatly there is a free lunch!
` . ` . ` . ` . ` . ` . ` . ` .
Dave
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 440
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From: Port Townsend,WA. USA
Chopperpilot47,
I should have asked : Will a power loss at 200ft and no airspeed result in death?
You are correct when you said "if you have speed then it really does not matter what height you are when you enter autorotation". But in that case you are not in the avoid zone of the height /velocity curve anyway.
For cases that were in the avoid zone of the height/velocity curve some may have survived. If you happen to be just barely inside the avoid zone then theoretically a good pilot could land with minor damage if any. But if you are smack in the middle of the avoid zone then I suppose death is likely.
Another curve could perhaps be drawn that would show the limit between death and just totalling the helo. That would be the part of the envelope to avoid with more purpose.
Rotornut said "I survived a flameout from 45ft without injury and some damage". Has anybody survived a power loss even higher inside the avoid zone of the height /velocity curve without airspeed?
Thanks,
slow
Dave J.
Thats not the first time you have suggested I take up ballooning.
I should have asked : Will a power loss at 200ft and no airspeed result in death?
You are correct when you said "if you have speed then it really does not matter what height you are when you enter autorotation". But in that case you are not in the avoid zone of the height /velocity curve anyway.
For cases that were in the avoid zone of the height/velocity curve some may have survived. If you happen to be just barely inside the avoid zone then theoretically a good pilot could land with minor damage if any. But if you are smack in the middle of the avoid zone then I suppose death is likely.
Another curve could perhaps be drawn that would show the limit between death and just totalling the helo. That would be the part of the envelope to avoid with more purpose.
Rotornut said "I survived a flameout from 45ft without injury and some damage". Has anybody survived a power loss even higher inside the avoid zone of the height /velocity curve without airspeed?
Thanks,
slow
Dave J.
Thats not the first time you have suggested I take up ballooning.
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: ON A HILL
Helicopters are useless and dangerous!!
Would I be correct in saying that if a rotor system were available that would permit engine off landings from around 50 feet ,that there might well be a worldwide demand and that the inventor of such a device might well make a few pounds out of it. By"engine off", I mean sudden loss of engine power, no warning, little or no foreward speed. As a matter of interest would anyone having experienced an engine failure under the above circumstances please enlighten us together with details of any structural damage inflicted. Thank you so kindly. Bug.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Just over there....no there.
Why would you even crash at 200' after an engine failure? (apart from terrain problems) What would the longliners among us say to that? The last company I worked with it was fairly normal to practice autorotations from all sorts of heights and speeds, including simulating hovering over a load, and yes above 50'....I'm still here.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,635
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From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
slowrotor,
Please don't think that I'm suggesting you consider ballooning as an alternative to rotorcraft or other potential means of VTOL.
. It is only meant to be humor from the free-thinking of a demented mind.
On further thought, if the Russians can do something to the surface of the torpedoes so that the travel at 200 knots per hour in water, perhaps something can be done to the surface of dirigibles so that they travel at 200 knots per hour in air.
Dave
Please don't think that I'm suggesting you consider ballooning as an alternative to rotorcraft or other potential means of VTOL.
. It is only meant to be humor from the free-thinking of a demented mind.On further thought, if the Russians can do something to the surface of the torpedoes so that the travel at 200 knots per hour in water, perhaps something can be done to the surface of dirigibles so that they travel at 200 knots per hour in air.
Dave
Last edited by Dave_Jackson; 14th February 2005 at 02:39.
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From: USA
Slowrotor asked "I should have asked : Will a power loss at 200ft and no airspeed result in death?
You are correct when you said "if you have speed then it really does not matter what height you are when you enter autorotation". But in that case you are not in the avoid zone of the height /velocity curve anyway".
I really don't think so although I haven't tried it. I would have thought that from 200' you could gain enough airspeed to make a reasonable touchdown out of it in the right helicopter. Bell 47/206 would be OK I think. I have certainly done vertical autos to touchdown but in a reasonable wind so I suppose you could argue they were not nil airspeed.
In any event I'm talking about an undamaged helicopter, I am confident that a quick auto from 200' would not result in death or injury.
Regards,
Chopperpilot47
You are correct when you said "if you have speed then it really does not matter what height you are when you enter autorotation". But in that case you are not in the avoid zone of the height /velocity curve anyway".
I really don't think so although I haven't tried it. I would have thought that from 200' you could gain enough airspeed to make a reasonable touchdown out of it in the right helicopter. Bell 47/206 would be OK I think. I have certainly done vertical autos to touchdown but in a reasonable wind so I suppose you could argue they were not nil airspeed.
In any event I'm talking about an undamaged helicopter, I am confident that a quick auto from 200' would not result in death or injury.
Regards,
Chopperpilot47
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Wiltshire
Our militery students practice EOLs from 100ft and 90kts and 120kts. No problem with either - some height can be gained if at 120. BUT these are always preceeded by 'practice engine failure GO'. I think an engine failure with no warning would be hugely different - the amount of Nr decay during the pilot's reaction time would be significant (depending on type - think of a R22!). However, with sufficient forward speed most aircraft types would recover Nr during a flare. From then on it's all down to what's underneath you!