R22 Corner
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I have been researching this subject recently as I am also in process of buying an R22. The going rate based on a sample of three training organisations seems to be around £80- £85 + VAT if applicable per hour dry. All the three I have asked are highly reputable genuine operators. I am probably going to go for a no capital group arrangement to share the fixed costs. I don't really want to lease back to a training organisation for all the reasons the other poster gave, plus the main reason I am buying my own is the availability and convenience - which I would lose if it were to be located at a flight school miles away.
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
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The "real" cost is what YOU pay for it.
The variables are:-
Insurance (so flying owner only is less than Club or As Required). So if you want to hire you need at least Club insurance, but can recover some costs.
Fuel per hour (known index per aircraft)
Based aircraft charges (landing/ hangar/ nav charges applicable to base)
Oil (.5 qt per hr)
Maintenance (50/ 100 hr charges for the R22) - this varies WIDELY in the UK (the range based on my review of the market in 2004 was 100% variation between lowest and highest, so this is a factor for owners)
Unscheduled maintenance (outside of the RHC std cost card) - my worst in one year was £60,000 due to unreported damage by a flying school, so this has quite a big impact on the individual cost card even over a five year plan.
Your margin - either you get what you ask for it at the location you want it to be or you do not. (see demand and supply below).
As you have done, divide by planned hours to establish annual charge.
There are two hard economic realities in play:-
1. Demand and supply, and there is no real shortage of R22 type machines for training leaseback. At certain times (a few months at a time), or in certain geographies, demand exceeds supply. However this tends to be short run.
2. Slim margins in aviation. Thus schools aim to pay as little as possible in order to make money from the use. Many/ certain schools own NO helicopters and just lease in machines from private owners. Why? No maintenance or unscheduled maintenance costs (the big item above). If there is damage then as long as they are flying a lot of hours then the increase in the owners maintenance passed on to them in a hourly usage charge is quite small compared with the saving in capital used on repairs. They only pay for what they use and thus can often have working capital in the bank before the bill lands.
As a flying school, why would you WANT to own machines ???
The least cost/ lowest risk/ best return is to have a few SFH pilots who fly a lot of hours and do so at low risk. The problem is finding them in a given geography if there has been a shortage of training in that region to generate high hours safe pilots .....
Ah, the eternal serpent..
The variables are:-
Insurance (so flying owner only is less than Club or As Required). So if you want to hire you need at least Club insurance, but can recover some costs.
Fuel per hour (known index per aircraft)
Based aircraft charges (landing/ hangar/ nav charges applicable to base)
Oil (.5 qt per hr)
Maintenance (50/ 100 hr charges for the R22) - this varies WIDELY in the UK (the range based on my review of the market in 2004 was 100% variation between lowest and highest, so this is a factor for owners)
Unscheduled maintenance (outside of the RHC std cost card) - my worst in one year was £60,000 due to unreported damage by a flying school, so this has quite a big impact on the individual cost card even over a five year plan.
Your margin - either you get what you ask for it at the location you want it to be or you do not. (see demand and supply below).
As you have done, divide by planned hours to establish annual charge.
There are two hard economic realities in play:-
1. Demand and supply, and there is no real shortage of R22 type machines for training leaseback. At certain times (a few months at a time), or in certain geographies, demand exceeds supply. However this tends to be short run.
2. Slim margins in aviation. Thus schools aim to pay as little as possible in order to make money from the use. Many/ certain schools own NO helicopters and just lease in machines from private owners. Why? No maintenance or unscheduled maintenance costs (the big item above). If there is damage then as long as they are flying a lot of hours then the increase in the owners maintenance passed on to them in a hourly usage charge is quite small compared with the saving in capital used on repairs. They only pay for what they use and thus can often have working capital in the bank before the bill lands.
As a flying school, why would you WANT to own machines ???
The least cost/ lowest risk/ best return is to have a few SFH pilots who fly a lot of hours and do so at low risk. The problem is finding them in a given geography if there has been a shortage of training in that region to generate high hours safe pilots .....
Ah, the eternal serpent..
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Thanks for all that. I am now beginning to see the truth in all this and my fears are proving founded!
Anyone want to buy a 22?!
Seriously though, I can see to benefit in owning my own machine to build hours and then sell the thing as soon as I get an instructor rating. That should, assuming no shocking unscheduled, save me a few quid. But I don't think leaseback is for me.
Someone has told me of a deal where a school is willing to pay £75 per hour and all the maintenance and insurance. This sounds a bit too good to be true. Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Secondly, I have toyed with the idea of setting up my own school and bringing in an instructor to train me and then use the machine to earn money at other times. Any thoughts on this and any instructors around that want to come and join me? I have done a fair bit of research and think it might be a goer in the particular area I am looking.
Thanks,
Anyone want to buy a 22?!
Seriously though, I can see to benefit in owning my own machine to build hours and then sell the thing as soon as I get an instructor rating. That should, assuming no shocking unscheduled, save me a few quid. But I don't think leaseback is for me.
Someone has told me of a deal where a school is willing to pay £75 per hour and all the maintenance and insurance. This sounds a bit too good to be true. Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Secondly, I have toyed with the idea of setting up my own school and bringing in an instructor to train me and then use the machine to earn money at other times. Any thoughts on this and any instructors around that want to come and join me? I have done a fair bit of research and think it might be a goer in the particular area I am looking.
Thanks,
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Someone has told me of a deal where a school is willing to pay £75 per hour and all the maintenance and insurance. This sounds a bit too good to be true. Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Setting up. Good plan. Note it has to be CAA licensed and so the Chief Pilot will have to be FI unrestricted etc and be good enough to be approved to be a CP (see LASORS).
One for sale? I know of one R22 pilot interested in buying. I'll point him at the post.
h-r
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Easiest option is to set up an RF (one of the few things that are free from the CAA) however you will still need to splash out on the premises and associated books and manuals that will be required. RF though will not alow converstions for later. As previously stated you will also need to obtain an FI of standing that the CAA will accept. I doubt very much that one with enough experience will be willing to work for flying pay on a start up operation but will wish to be salaried. Along with all the other usual costs involved.
If you wish to have a chat then by all means PM me for contact details.
Max T.
If you wish to have a chat then by all means PM me for contact details.
Max T.
Better red than ...
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Its not been mentioned explicitly so far but the way to avoid the leaseback risks and cost issue is to hire to SFH people direct.
As the R22 owner you then take all the profit rather than cutting 30 to 60% to the FS as a sales agent.
Put that into your financial model and the whole balance changes very quickly.
As the R22 owner you then take all the profit rather than cutting 30 to 60% to the FS as a sales agent.
Put that into your financial model and the whole balance changes very quickly.
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Thanks again red-eye,
I gather then that if this school is willing to insure any unscheduled I may have a very good deal - but only if they fly enough hours to cover my payments to pay for the machine. What would an average school do in a year? It could actually be a better investment than property or high interest accounts. Am I right?
As for the School, I assume by CP you mean chief pilot and when you refer to Lasors it's the section about QFI's? So I would need a QFI and he would be licensed and approved by the CAA by the nature of the license he holds? As in he's not a AFI but a QFI. Am I correct?
I'm erring towards this route I must admit. As at the moment I'm looking for another business to set up to give me an income. If I do it then I would also look at getting a 44 to lease from someone (now knowing what I know about leasing!!) So really the only thing in my way is getting a good QFI to join me.
I read a great article today in the Times online which was about the expected growth in flight training due to the economical sense of business people using 22's for business travel because of increasing congestion. Very interesting. I think I put 'R22 maintenance costs' into Google and it came up on the first page.
Once again, thanks for the help.
Sorry, what\'s an RF? Thanks for the advice on the self hire. I can see the benifit in that.
And thanks Max T. I think I might take you up on that offer and call you in the week if that\'s OK?
I gather then that if this school is willing to insure any unscheduled I may have a very good deal - but only if they fly enough hours to cover my payments to pay for the machine. What would an average school do in a year? It could actually be a better investment than property or high interest accounts. Am I right?
As for the School, I assume by CP you mean chief pilot and when you refer to Lasors it's the section about QFI's? So I would need a QFI and he would be licensed and approved by the CAA by the nature of the license he holds? As in he's not a AFI but a QFI. Am I correct?
I'm erring towards this route I must admit. As at the moment I'm looking for another business to set up to give me an income. If I do it then I would also look at getting a 44 to lease from someone (now knowing what I know about leasing!!) So really the only thing in my way is getting a good QFI to join me.
I read a great article today in the Times online which was about the expected growth in flight training due to the economical sense of business people using 22's for business travel because of increasing congestion. Very interesting. I think I put 'R22 maintenance costs' into Google and it came up on the first page.
Once again, thanks for the help.
Sorry, what\'s an RF? Thanks for the advice on the self hire. I can see the benifit in that.
And thanks Max T. I think I might take you up on that offer and call you in the week if that\'s OK?
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An RF is a Registered Facility and allows only Ab-initio training only so no converstions to other types later. The R44 therefore would probably not be as easy to make use of as one would first think.
The next step up would be to open an FTO. This though is more expense still and requires several members of staff to hold key positions. Beyond this is the TRTO. Both of these options though will require much more in paperwork, training manuals and quality as well as safety audits. The CAA loves their audit trails and sometimes it almost seems that these are more important than the quality of the training being given.
By all means call me if you want a chat.
MAX T.
The next step up would be to open an FTO. This though is more expense still and requires several members of staff to hold key positions. Beyond this is the TRTO. Both of these options though will require much more in paperwork, training manuals and quality as well as safety audits. The CAA loves their audit trails and sometimes it almost seems that these are more important than the quality of the training being given.
By all means call me if you want a chat.
MAX T.
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SFAR 73 R22 duel instruction
Why have the FAA insisted on this directive before allowing solo flight in the R22? Why have they come down hard on the little beast ?
From SFAR 73
(3) A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R–22 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight. In addition, the person must obtain an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that instruction has been given in those maneuvers and procedures, and the instructor has found the applicant proficient to solo a Robinson R–22. This endorsement is valid for a period of 90 days.
From SFAR 73
(3) A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R–22 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight. In addition, the person must obtain an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that instruction has been given in those maneuvers and procedures, and the instructor has found the applicant proficient to solo a Robinson R–22. This endorsement is valid for a period of 90 days.
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...because before the SFAR, that "little beast" done reared up and bit a lot of low-time solo students (and a lot of low-R22-time pilots in general).
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Hi guys,
I have been teaching in R22's for over 2000 hrs and my advice to anyone who wants to practice solo autorotations is
DON'T !!!
The R22 is great machine to fly but due to design characteristics very, very unforgiving under certain circumstances.
If you want to brush up on autos get yourself an experienced insturctor who will be happy to help out.
I have been teaching in R22's for over 2000 hrs and my advice to anyone who wants to practice solo autorotations is
DON'T !!!
The R22 is great machine to fly but due to design characteristics very, very unforgiving under certain circumstances.
If you want to brush up on autos get yourself an experienced insturctor who will be happy to help out.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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About pulling down on the blades:
If I remember correctly the ratio of force from blade tip to head (and blade stops) is around 1:75, so if you pull down with 10lbs of force on the tip you exert over 750lbs!! on the blade stops, breaking them
One thing I would like to know is why are the tachs 104% not 100% ? Anyone know.....
If I remember correctly the ratio of force from blade tip to head (and blade stops) is around 1:75, so if you pull down with 10lbs of force on the tip you exert over 750lbs!! on the blade stops, breaking them
One thing I would like to know is why are the tachs 104% not 100% ? Anyone know.....
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Frank pointed to the rotor tach and said,
"We have these helicopters specially made - most helicopters only go up to 100%, but look, ours go up to 104%. It's for when you need that little extra push over the top..."
"We have these helicopters specially made - most helicopters only go up to 100%, but look, ours go up to 104%. It's for when you need that little extra push over the top..."
Join Date: Mar 2005
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R22 Hover Ceiling Graphs
Hi all,
New to Pprune,
First, obligatory apologies for stupid questions. I'm about half way through the PPL training and have been given some nasty homework. I'm far too old for homework but sadly nobody seems to care (especially my instructor).
My question is this ......
All of the performance data on the R22 Beta that I've read tells me that the max Hover IGE ceiling at MAUW is around 9500ft.
How is this figure calculated? The relevant graph in the manual doesn't seem to show this at all.
For that matter, it seems easy enough to calculate max allowable weight given PA and temp info but how does one calculate max hover ceiling given only weight and temperature information?
Do you just work through the graph backwards? If that is the case, how is the above max IGE hover ceiling of 9500ft (at max all up weight) calculated? It doesn't seem to match.
Once again ..... sorry if this makes the pro's groan with frustration.
Many thanks
Norvill.
New to Pprune,
First, obligatory apologies for stupid questions. I'm about half way through the PPL training and have been given some nasty homework. I'm far too old for homework but sadly nobody seems to care (especially my instructor).
My question is this ......
All of the performance data on the R22 Beta that I've read tells me that the max Hover IGE ceiling at MAUW is around 9500ft.
How is this figure calculated? The relevant graph in the manual doesn't seem to show this at all.
For that matter, it seems easy enough to calculate max allowable weight given PA and temp info but how does one calculate max hover ceiling given only weight and temperature information?
Do you just work through the graph backwards? If that is the case, how is the above max IGE hover ceiling of 9500ft (at max all up weight) calculated? It doesn't seem to match.
Once again ..... sorry if this makes the pro's groan with frustration.
Many thanks
Norvill.
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hey man, i just looked at graph 5.4.1 at it shows MAUW IGE hover ceiling on standard day at 7000 ft PA, with temperature at approx +1C, so that fits in with standard lapse rate of 2C per 1000 ft from ISA .
At 1250lb hover ceiling is about 9300 ft PA on standard day, and temp about -5C so that more or less checks as well.
either read across from left to actual temp at that pressure altitude and then down to find max weight for that PA or start at actual weight and read up to actual temp at altitude then across to find relevant PA
remember pressure altitude is altitude indicated with 1013 set without a temperature correction, if you do correct for temperature then you have a density altitude
hope this helps
regards
CF
At 1250lb hover ceiling is about 9300 ft PA on standard day, and temp about -5C so that more or less checks as well.
either read across from left to actual temp at that pressure altitude and then down to find max weight for that PA or start at actual weight and read up to actual temp at altitude then across to find relevant PA
remember pressure altitude is altitude indicated with 1013 set without a temperature correction, if you do correct for temperature then you have a density altitude
hope this helps
regards
CF
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Thanks for that!
Ok .... If you'll bear with me, I'd like to check that I am now using these graphs correctly.
What then, would be the Max Hover Ceiling OGE given, a weight of 1370lbs, an OAT of 30 degrees C at sea level and a QNH of 1005?
I get 3400ft PA which I convert to 3160ft indicated altitude.
I hope I'm somewhere close.
Thanks in advance
Norvill
Ok .... If you'll bear with me, I'd like to check that I am now using these graphs correctly.
What then, would be the Max Hover Ceiling OGE given, a weight of 1370lbs, an OAT of 30 degrees C at sea level and a QNH of 1005?
I get 3400ft PA which I convert to 3160ft indicated altitude.
I hope I'm somewhere close.
Thanks in advance
Norvill
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Hey man,
I dont think you are allowing for the lapse rate from ISA conditions of approx 2C per 1000 ft on a standard day
i.e. I think you are using the surface temp and then applying that at altitude which it wouldnt be (it would generally be colder)
if it is 30C at sea level it would be about 23C at 3500 ft.
In the UK use the met office chart F214 to determine temp at altitude or the OAT gauge in the aircraft BEFORE you attempt to hover OGE.
assume it is 23C at altitude the max OGE hover ceiling would be about 3800 PA which would be about 3560 QNH with 1005 set
which would be about 5500 density altitude using chart 5.3, note the R22's max operating altitude and VNE limitations are expressed as Density Altitude not pressure altitude or Indicated altitude, which on a hot day like your one can come into play earlier than you would expect
you follow ?
regards
CF
I dont think you are allowing for the lapse rate from ISA conditions of approx 2C per 1000 ft on a standard day
i.e. I think you are using the surface temp and then applying that at altitude which it wouldnt be (it would generally be colder)
if it is 30C at sea level it would be about 23C at 3500 ft.
In the UK use the met office chart F214 to determine temp at altitude or the OAT gauge in the aircraft BEFORE you attempt to hover OGE.
assume it is 23C at altitude the max OGE hover ceiling would be about 3800 PA which would be about 3560 QNH with 1005 set
which would be about 5500 density altitude using chart 5.3, note the R22's max operating altitude and VNE limitations are expressed as Density Altitude not pressure altitude or Indicated altitude, which on a hot day like your one can come into play earlier than you would expect
you follow ?
regards
CF
cullear1
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hoursbuilding
this is my first post to the site although i have been reading for a year or so now. i would like some views/opinions please. i have 100 hrs and an faa ppl/h, i am going to enrol with dragon on their cpl/h modular course but this is what i was thinking about my flying? i was considering the idea of purchasing an r22 with about 1000 hours left and leasing it back to a school in order to reduce the cost of my flying, has anyone any advice, comments helpful suggestions?