R22 Corner
Guest
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I think that doing the part of a pre-flight which envolves pulling the tail down with a passenger onboard in VERY Foolish, and I have to add that I hope that was mentioned in jest!
You are right about the filling of the trgb it is generally done with the aircraft on a flat surface, and similarly with the mrgb. My engineers and pilots all check both levels with the aircraft on flat ground. (Well, as flat as is possible!)
Another thing which I would say to all pilots, just for safety's sake, when doing the 'tail pully downy' bit do it with the ground handling wheels ON!!!
It gives the tailcone a fighting chance of not being crinkled!
Fly safe, and remember,
Some days you are the statue and some days you are the Pigeon!!!
You are right about the filling of the trgb it is generally done with the aircraft on a flat surface, and similarly with the mrgb. My engineers and pilots all check both levels with the aircraft on flat ground. (Well, as flat as is possible!)
Another thing which I would say to all pilots, just for safety's sake, when doing the 'tail pully downy' bit do it with the ground handling wheels ON!!!
It gives the tailcone a fighting chance of not being crinkled!
Fly safe, and remember,
Some days you are the statue and some days you are the Pigeon!!!
Guest
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R 22 Startup checklist
Received a lot of amendments for the R22 POH a few days ago, along with a new cards for approved startup/shutdown procedure.
I haven't examined all of the changes fully but two major changes (there are others)have caused me to think about the effects. They are;
Mag check now at 75% and not 100% RPM
and
'Idle OK' is now omitted from the list,
where it used to say 'Check needle split, idle OK'.
In the case of the mag check, how good an idea is it to do this at 75%? Won't any drop be less evident? I am waiting for a reaction from Lycoming on this as it seems more logical to do such a check at 100%, as is done with most aircraft this engine is fitted to.
In the case of the latter I have real concerns that a check on idle speed was a very important safeguard, especially on the first start of the day in cool and dmap condtions. I've seen the engine stop at idle
when doing the sprag clutch check due to the
icing conditions present.
I guess that this may have been modified to cover the R22BII (which has a level of 'automatic'carb heat application) but feel it might be a retrograde step for other models with manual only carb heat application.
Anyway, for the avoidance of doubt, 12" or so MP on the warmup sequence needs carb heat application just like any other power setting below 18" if conditions conducive to carb icing exist and it will now be even more important to emphasise that now this useful little 'flag' had gone.
Any comments ?
I haven't examined all of the changes fully but two major changes (there are others)have caused me to think about the effects. They are;
Mag check now at 75% and not 100% RPM
and
'Idle OK' is now omitted from the list,
where it used to say 'Check needle split, idle OK'.
In the case of the mag check, how good an idea is it to do this at 75%? Won't any drop be less evident? I am waiting for a reaction from Lycoming on this as it seems more logical to do such a check at 100%, as is done with most aircraft this engine is fitted to.
In the case of the latter I have real concerns that a check on idle speed was a very important safeguard, especially on the first start of the day in cool and dmap condtions. I've seen the engine stop at idle
when doing the sprag clutch check due to the
icing conditions present.
I guess that this may have been modified to cover the R22BII (which has a level of 'automatic'carb heat application) but feel it might be a retrograde step for other models with manual only carb heat application.
Anyway, for the avoidance of doubt, 12" or so MP on the warmup sequence needs carb heat application just like any other power setting below 18" if conditions conducive to carb icing exist and it will now be even more important to emphasise that now this useful little 'flag' had gone.
Any comments ?
Guest
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Hi Steve,
I received my bundle too, haven't gone thru it.
It amazes me that I got a new POH and it SPIRAL bound, where all the mods are three hole punched, cannot one get a straight shot at how the POH will be?
I can only think that possibly, the Nr reduction for the mag check was to minimize a change of tipping/moving the heli while one's attention is diverted to performing the check itself. I was taught that when I'm in the lower half of the checklist adfter the clutch check, when I'm getting my MP values off the chart, final tuning of radios, etc. To do that at 70-75% instead of at 100% then bring it up onto the governor when you have finished the checklist, stowed it and are ready to go.
Makes sense to me that that might be it, but I would agree with you in asking if the values would be reliable.
Don't know on the removal of the "idle ok."
But I'll ask around.
don't remember if I kept my old three ring POH cover, if so I'm chopping off the spiral from my new POH and retrofitting it into the binder, if I don't have it it's going to become three holed anyway, wtih lose rings, like a Mil checklist ....
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Marc
I received my bundle too, haven't gone thru it.
It amazes me that I got a new POH and it SPIRAL bound, where all the mods are three hole punched, cannot one get a straight shot at how the POH will be?
I can only think that possibly, the Nr reduction for the mag check was to minimize a change of tipping/moving the heli while one's attention is diverted to performing the check itself. I was taught that when I'm in the lower half of the checklist adfter the clutch check, when I'm getting my MP values off the chart, final tuning of radios, etc. To do that at 70-75% instead of at 100% then bring it up onto the governor when you have finished the checklist, stowed it and are ready to go.
Makes sense to me that that might be it, but I would agree with you in asking if the values would be reliable.
Don't know on the removal of the "idle ok."
But I'll ask around.
don't remember if I kept my old three ring POH cover, if so I'm chopping off the spiral from my new POH and retrofitting it into the binder, if I don't have it it's going to become three holed anyway, wtih lose rings, like a Mil checklist ....
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Marc
Guest
Posts: n/a
Good points all and have to agree that it is safer to do the check at 75% for many reasons
but does the check itself mean as much?
I thought mag.s should be checked at 'full chat' to get an accurate assessment. Also,
now the 7% isn't 7% of 100% but 7% of 75%
(ie. closer to 10% of 100%).
That has to be a larger allowable drop before the fail/pass limit is reached?
but does the check itself mean as much?
I thought mag.s should be checked at 'full chat' to get an accurate assessment. Also,
now the 7% isn't 7% of 100% but 7% of 75%
(ie. closer to 10% of 100%).
That has to be a larger allowable drop before the fail/pass limit is reached?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Either the mags work or they don't(to degree), along with the carb heat. When you chop the throttle to check the sprag it will go to idle you can then go to the governor on low rotor rpm check.
[This message has been edited by rotorhead4 (edited 23 February 2001).]
[This message has been edited by rotorhead4 (edited 23 February 2001).]
Guest
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On RPM for Mag chk - if I remember Robinson are trying to avoid prolonged time at 100% lever down to avoid resonance of the clutch leaf springs (we remember flickering clutch lights). This has been rectified but I guess it is still a concern.
Old thread - pulling tail down to view aft flex coupling/oil. Inspection of aft flex plate does not feature in new check list???.
Changes to POH mainly to incorperate Beta II
carb. heat assist and the normal changes of terminology (1 USG of fuel remainig - engine will run out after 5mins cruise power as opposed to may run out) etc
Lots of other changes - something I have just figured out - the recent changes in POH are identified by vertical lines next to the text (left on left page, right on right page)
prob old news
Old thread - pulling tail down to view aft flex coupling/oil. Inspection of aft flex plate does not feature in new check list???.
Changes to POH mainly to incorperate Beta II
carb. heat assist and the normal changes of terminology (1 USG of fuel remainig - engine will run out after 5mins cruise power as opposed to may run out) etc
Lots of other changes - something I have just figured out - the recent changes in POH are identified by vertical lines next to the text (left on left page, right on right page)
prob old news
Guest
Posts: n/a
Talk.
Not old news to me (the lines), I hadn't noticed, and welcome to the forum BTW.
Indeed the Beta II is now in but I have to confess that I have not studied it all in detail yet.
There is heaps of good stuff coming out in this thread and its all of great value.
I'm still a little concerned that now the fail for the mags is now 10% and used to be 7%, not a factor for the experienced R22 pilot who will feel a problem anyway but I'm thinking of Mr Tyro(as we MUST!)and he (she) might be tempted give it a 'pass at 8% drop when he might have failed it at 7% beforehand...
Also 'idle OK' going missing from the needle split is a worry. It is crucial to check that the idle really IS OK on a cold and damp day, esp. for the first start (mainfold not up to full temp, so carb heat slightly less effective).
Pedantic I know, but that is what the 'P'is for!
Anyway, keep it all coming!
SPS
If a little knowledge is dangerous, greater knowledge promotes safety................
Not old news to me (the lines), I hadn't noticed, and welcome to the forum BTW.
Indeed the Beta II is now in but I have to confess that I have not studied it all in detail yet.
There is heaps of good stuff coming out in this thread and its all of great value.
I'm still a little concerned that now the fail for the mags is now 10% and used to be 7%, not a factor for the experienced R22 pilot who will feel a problem anyway but I'm thinking of Mr Tyro(as we MUST!)and he (she) might be tempted give it a 'pass at 8% drop when he might have failed it at 7% beforehand...
Also 'idle OK' going missing from the needle split is a worry. It is crucial to check that the idle really IS OK on a cold and damp day, esp. for the first start (mainfold not up to full temp, so carb heat slightly less effective).
Pedantic I know, but that is what the 'P'is for!
Anyway, keep it all coming!
SPS
If a little knowledge is dangerous, greater knowledge promotes safety................
Guest
Posts: n/a
SPS
The reason for the 75% mag check is, or rather was clutch leaf springs/micro switches. (As I mentioned before and prob not anything to do with the fan)
After FAA appoval of 75% mag checks (13OCT00) they had sorted the spring thing.
I agree with you on the 7% 2sec prob.
Best to do a mag check at 104% and pulling power (low hover) - seriously not advisable.
Doing a mag check at low power/rpm is hardly noticeable so therefore 75%erpm 4% 2secs may be closer to the mark.
___
O-o
"`
The reason for the 75% mag check is, or rather was clutch leaf springs/micro switches. (As I mentioned before and prob not anything to do with the fan)
After FAA appoval of 75% mag checks (13OCT00) they had sorted the spring thing.
I agree with you on the 7% 2sec prob.
Best to do a mag check at 104% and pulling power (low hover) - seriously not advisable.
Doing a mag check at low power/rpm is hardly noticeable so therefore 75%erpm 4% 2secs may be closer to the mark.
___
O-o
"`
Guest
Posts: n/a
SPS:
Have to agree that the "idle check" okay should be left on the checklist. If the first flights of the day are practising autos and a student finds himself with the engine stopping completely when splitting the needles, just makes people worried if a full EOL might have to be carried out.
I have experienced the engine stopping when doing sprag clutch check on a couple of occasions. Am I right in thinking that the new Robbo POH thing is to apply full carb heat straight away while the engine is warming up anyway. I've been doing that for a while now but heard it was to be the norm? It stops you forgeting carb heat application and ensures it's been applied for a while b4 sprag clutch check.
Remember, there are still a load of R22's out there without carb heat assist, and thats all it is, ASSIST!!!
Have to agree that the "idle check" okay should be left on the checklist. If the first flights of the day are practising autos and a student finds himself with the engine stopping completely when splitting the needles, just makes people worried if a full EOL might have to be carried out.
I have experienced the engine stopping when doing sprag clutch check on a couple of occasions. Am I right in thinking that the new Robbo POH thing is to apply full carb heat straight away while the engine is warming up anyway. I've been doing that for a while now but heard it was to be the norm? It stops you forgeting carb heat application and ensures it's been applied for a while b4 sprag clutch check.
Remember, there are still a load of R22's out there without carb heat assist, and thats all it is, ASSIST!!!
Guest
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I believe the mag check at 75% is for the same reason as the R44. When selecting left/right mag you can accidently switch the engine off then quickly turn the key back to both which damages the transmission due to the excessive snatching (torque) of the engine on restart. 75% reduces the torque hence less chance of damage to the transmission should you accidently switch off then back to both. obviously if the key switch is turned to off the engine should be restarted in the correct sequence
Stuart
Stuart
Guest
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Don't forget that all percentages relate to the actual RPM at 100% and are not a percentage of the current RPM. Similarly, when a turbine engined helicopter requires hover torque plus 20%, you do nothave to work out 20% of the current torque figure, it's relative to 100%.
Although Chips with... is mistaken in thinking 100% RPM at flat pitch is "full power", he is right of course that FW do their check at a lower figure. Eg 1800 RPM with a 2600 red line = about 70%.
It's always interesting when a change comes out with no real explanation; maybe manufacturers could include a brief summary of reasons with ammendments.
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Another day in paradise
Although Chips with... is mistaken in thinking 100% RPM at flat pitch is "full power", he is right of course that FW do their check at a lower figure. Eg 1800 RPM with a 2600 red line = about 70%.
It's always interesting when a change comes out with no real explanation; maybe manufacturers could include a brief summary of reasons with ammendments.
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Another day in paradise
Guest
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212man:
I had thought about comparing it to FW mag checks too earlier, but had not gotten around to it. The comparison seems valid.
I would wish RHC would make up it's mind on manual format. I just completed stripping off the spiral binding and slicing the resultant pages so I could three hole punch them to add my update pack, now I just have to pick up some binder rings to finish
Funny they do not already add summaries to amendments, NATOP's always did with theirs.
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Marc
I had thought about comparing it to FW mag checks too earlier, but had not gotten around to it. The comparison seems valid.
I would wish RHC would make up it's mind on manual format. I just completed stripping off the spiral binding and slicing the resultant pages so I could three hole punch them to add my update pack, now I just have to pick up some binder rings to finish
Funny they do not already add summaries to amendments, NATOP's always did with theirs.
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Marc
Guest
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R22 ENGINE STOPS
I recently read an article in the UK of 2No R22's which suffered engine failure due to air starvation. Apparently the paper air filter can get saturated with moisture when landing frequently on snow or when left outside overnight during rain / high moisture conditions.
Also any AAIB / NTSB subsequent investigations following any fatal accidents would find it difficult to determine the reason for the engine failure due to the filter drying out prior to the inspection of the aircraft
Older R22's had a spring loaded flap which would open if air starvation was a problem when newer models are not fitted with these flaps.
Any other incidents simular ?
Also any AAIB / NTSB subsequent investigations following any fatal accidents would find it difficult to determine the reason for the engine failure due to the filter drying out prior to the inspection of the aircraft
Older R22's had a spring loaded flap which would open if air starvation was a problem when newer models are not fitted with these flaps.
Any other incidents simular ?
Guest
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I can't give deatils of any similar occurrence(s) as I have not 'wrriten up' the two that I intend to write about in the future. However, I can speak with knowledge of the two you mention because one of them directly involved me and both happened here in NZ. I wrote the article you quote, which was published in 'Rotor Torque,' the Heli. Club of GB's magazine. You precis of it is very accurate.
Full accounts of the occurrences described in the magazine article may be found on my website by selecting 'Occurrences' and then following the titles. Both are posted separately. (Web address is in my 'profile')
If there is sufficient interest in these accounts from other pprune forum members then I will arrange to post them directly onto this site under a a new thread.
Up to you ppruner's - If you want them posted, let me know.
Regards
SPS
Full accounts of the occurrences described in the magazine article may be found on my website by selecting 'Occurrences' and then following the titles. Both are posted separately. (Web address is in my 'profile')
If there is sufficient interest in these accounts from other pprune forum members then I will arrange to post them directly onto this site under a a new thread.
Up to you ppruner's - If you want them posted, let me know.
Regards
SPS
Guest
Posts: n/a
I forgot to mention....
There is a similar occurrence (air starvation) described under 'Safety matters', also found on my site.
Same deal - If enough ppruners want to see that posted then I'll do that too. Let me know.
SPS
If a little knowledege is dangerous, greater knowledge promotes safety.
There is a similar occurrence (air starvation) described under 'Safety matters', also found on my site.
Same deal - If enough ppruners want to see that posted then I'll do that too. Let me know.
SPS
If a little knowledege is dangerous, greater knowledge promotes safety.
Guest
Posts: n/a
212man:
Never thought for a moment that 100% RPM was full power.
I mentioned full power because SPS said "full chat", and I know that 100% RPM (or 100% power for that matter) with a FW fixed pitch prop would (a) be unachievable on the ground and (b) would overwhelm the brakes.
Anyway I think we all understood each other really.
I'm sure SPS didn't mean full power either!!
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More volts, Igor
Never thought for a moment that 100% RPM was full power.
I mentioned full power because SPS said "full chat", and I know that 100% RPM (or 100% power for that matter) with a FW fixed pitch prop would (a) be unachievable on the ground and (b) would overwhelm the brakes.
Anyway I think we all understood each other really.
I'm sure SPS didn't mean full power either!!
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More volts, Igor