Cheap Labour or Sensible idea?
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: North of the Border
Cheap Labour
I read on another thread that the CAA/JAA are considering accepting ICAO licenses for commercial pilots. If this is true, does that mean that there will be an influx of pilots willing to work for peanuts and take all our jobs away?
It happened in the shipping industry...........
It happened in the shipping industry...........
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: Desert Rat
No, it finally alleviates the pain going through these JAA exams. If one holds already a european ICAO commercial license then why should one have to apply for JAA ground exams? Does not make sense. It does even make less sense if the ICAO commercial license was issued in an EC country. Amen
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Downeast
Dear Boy....accept an FAA certificate as an equal to a CAA License...oh my....that just wouldn't do at all. No...No...why how could one think that? Why the Yanks do not even speak the language.
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: YBCG
It seems that the jaa authorities are looking at the faa cpl in a serious mind and are CONSIDERING the fact, that if you have at least 1500 hours and a faa cpl , you may just have to take a airlaw exam and a flight test.
Like I say, its not been rubber stamped but watch out
Like I say, its not been rubber stamped but watch out
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,197
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From: UK
Is it time all aviation authorities belonging to ICAO just accepted licenses issued by another member state?
Should ICAO licence holders have to to anything more than an Air Law exam to be able to fly legally in another ICAO country?
Any 'competition' issues could still be dealt with by the government department that issues Job permits.
The attitude SASless describes is true. Embarrassing, but still true.
Any thoughts?
Should ICAO licence holders have to to anything more than an Air Law exam to be able to fly legally in another ICAO country?
Any 'competition' issues could still be dealt with by the government department that issues Job permits.
The attitude SASless describes is true. Embarrassing, but still true.
Any thoughts?
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 955
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From: UK
Rip Off
The JAR-FCL Rules for aeroplanes and helicopters
are ostensibly there to provide a level of competence
and professionalism above that in the USA for instance
and allow free movement of crews through Europe so the
labour shortages are mitigated.
However the real reason for these JAA rules is job protectionism
and the'safety' case is a smokescreen for protecting vested interest.
The actual effect of JAA rules is to
1. Increase a pilot's training costs
2. Increase the level of difficulty
3. Reduce the size of the market (25 PPL/A IRs issued last year)
4. Increase the time required to train pilots
5. Allows all the English speakers in Europe to take UK pilot jobs
How can it be possible for all those American chappies to fly
into Heathrow with a mere ICAO ATPL?...Quite disgraceful....
are ostensibly there to provide a level of competence
and professionalism above that in the USA for instance
and allow free movement of crews through Europe so the
labour shortages are mitigated.
However the real reason for these JAA rules is job protectionism
and the'safety' case is a smokescreen for protecting vested interest.
The actual effect of JAA rules is to
1. Increase a pilot's training costs
2. Increase the level of difficulty
3. Reduce the size of the market (25 PPL/A IRs issued last year)
4. Increase the time required to train pilots
5. Allows all the English speakers in Europe to take UK pilot jobs
How can it be possible for all those American chappies to fly
into Heathrow with a mere ICAO ATPL?...Quite disgraceful....
Joined: Feb 2004
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 70
Likes: 1
From: Home:California. Work: the lower 48
Peanuts!!
Replying to "crashondeck"'s earlier post. Don't you guys already work for peanuts?
Also, accepting a license does not necessarily mean accepting every nationality with that license. There are plenty of Brits with just an FAA license. I think if it ever happened, the first people back in blighty would be fellas like me to see if your CAA ticket really does mean you fly like gods.
Your jobs are safe.....for now.
Also, accepting a license does not necessarily mean accepting every nationality with that license. There are plenty of Brits with just an FAA license. I think if it ever happened, the first people back in blighty would be fellas like me to see if your CAA ticket really does mean you fly like gods.
Your jobs are safe.....for now.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 44
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From: Australia
Everyone's our mate!
As I've posted on another thread, we are all nice blokes (and lassys) down here, you front up with an ICAO, sit an air law conversion exam, meet the aeronautical qualifications, and we write one out for you on the spot.
Now that's fair....aye. No reason anyone else should be doing anything different.
Now that's fair....aye. No reason anyone else should be doing anything different.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: 18 Degrees North
I dont see why after I went all through the pain of doing 14 sodding exams in the UK and months and months of studying and expense and loss of earnings, that someone should be able to nick a potential job I could have on the back of an FAA ticket and an air law exam etc etc even if they are highly experienced.
because they simply havent been through the same level of effort as I have to get their ticket.
I dont care if its not PC to say as much.
because they simply havent been through the same level of effort as I have to get their ticket.
I dont care if its not PC to say as much.
Joined: May 2004
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From: North of Zero
Well Camp Freddie, I have had to go through your system, after spending just as much pain doing the Aussie ones originally. All just to get a tick in the box to do EXACTLY what I was doing in Oz.
Are you suggesting that a JAR pilot is better than an ICAO one?
14 exams that are questionable as to their relevance is, as has been stated already, protectionism and nothing else.
You still need a 'green card' to work in UK, USA and Oz, so what's your problem?
Are you suggesting that a JAR pilot is better than an ICAO one?
14 exams that are questionable as to their relevance is, as has been stated already, protectionism and nothing else.
You still need a 'green card' to work in UK, USA and Oz, so what's your problem?
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: 18 Degrees North
hey talklimited
my problem is that I am specifically comparing groundschool for the FAA licence with that for the JAR licence.
I dont think anyone would seriously argue that the FAA groundschool is as hard.
I am not suggesting that anyone is a better "pilot" than anyone else.
my groundschool instructor said that in his his opinion the the point of the groundschool from the CAA point of view was not to teach relevant knowledge as one might think, but to set a barrier of sufficient difficulty that would keep out the riff raff.
now I have seen loads of fine PPL helicopter pilots with good skills and knowledge. also I have seen many who were real "scumbags", the same guys who do dodgy charters on aircraft they are not rated on with a white shirt and gold bars the whole ego thing. but I have far less professional pilots who have overcome the barriers in front of them who were not honourable people.
disregarding the "right to work" I just dont think that that there should be "open skies" in this regard unless we have a similar grounschool standard, it was hard for me, I want a level playing field with people from other countries or my efforts are devalued !.
my problem is that I am specifically comparing groundschool for the FAA licence with that for the JAR licence.
I dont think anyone would seriously argue that the FAA groundschool is as hard.
I am not suggesting that anyone is a better "pilot" than anyone else.
my groundschool instructor said that in his his opinion the the point of the groundschool from the CAA point of view was not to teach relevant knowledge as one might think, but to set a barrier of sufficient difficulty that would keep out the riff raff.
now I have seen loads of fine PPL helicopter pilots with good skills and knowledge. also I have seen many who were real "scumbags", the same guys who do dodgy charters on aircraft they are not rated on with a white shirt and gold bars the whole ego thing. but I have far less professional pilots who have overcome the barriers in front of them who were not honourable people.
disregarding the "right to work" I just dont think that that there should be "open skies" in this regard unless we have a similar grounschool standard, it was hard for me, I want a level playing field with people from other countries or my efforts are devalued !.
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: bill's fridge
Camp Freddie,
the seppo's basically invented this sport, pioneered sling and belly tanks and medical retrieval etc and yet their ground school is one of the most basic around.
I have the Bristol CD and not a great deal of the ATPL has anything to do with flying helicopters.
Where does a compulsory amount of time in the class room come from? That's crazy. You know it or you don't.
The US air law docs are relatively small and tell you what you can do.
Our air law docs are huge and tell you what you can't do.
So you did the hards yards... we all do somewhere along the line and others will always get breaks which seem unfair.
That's life. get over it, and when your an employer you can secretly discriminate aginst ICAO licenced pilots.
the seppo's basically invented this sport, pioneered sling and belly tanks and medical retrieval etc and yet their ground school is one of the most basic around.
I have the Bristol CD and not a great deal of the ATPL has anything to do with flying helicopters.
Where does a compulsory amount of time in the class room come from? That's crazy. You know it or you don't.
The US air law docs are relatively small and tell you what you can do.
Our air law docs are huge and tell you what you can't do.
So you did the hards yards... we all do somewhere along the line and others will always get breaks which seem unfair.
That's life. get over it, and when your an employer you can secretly discriminate aginst ICAO licenced pilots.
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 30
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From: england
Lets not forget that training in this country is really expensive and if these rules change instead of a healthy portion of trainees going abroad probably 90% or so will go and do their licenses in these approaved countries.
No bad thing however it will kill the training industry in the U.K ry so there wont be any jobs anyway for the low time newly qualified pilot. Because most Training/Charter companys will close down.
The Americans reap the rewards of The European training market. then after the J1 visa has finished chew us up and spit us out the country.
No bad thing however it will kill the training industry in the U.K ry so there wont be any jobs anyway for the low time newly qualified pilot. Because most Training/Charter companys will close down.
The Americans reap the rewards of The European training market. then after the J1 visa has finished chew us up and spit us out the country.
