CATIRL
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
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higher standards to reduce accidents and fatalities - a desire that cannot be faulted.
The military are not pushing through pilots at the same rate as in days of yore and the increased costs will make it prohibitive for the civilian.
So, any operators out there who essentially agree with Steve76 who can can come up with some financing proposals because, from where I sit as a (lovely, delightful) beancounter, these costs will have to be passed on the customer, who won't want to pay and hence the jobs are not there and it becomes a very elite job for the very rich or the few who have made it through the services.
It is ALL basically supply and demand; Steve76's proposals would seriously bu$$er that fine balance
Cheers
Whirlygig
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This is an interseting discussion, I can see value in everybody opinions posted so far, even if I dont necessarily agree with all of them.
Out of curiosity what is the standard time completed after military flight training?
How long before they have a command seat? (Iknow that would vary on type)
If the military is going to be a benchmark it would be good to have some figures.
Perhaps this could be an area for the government to help out companies who sponsor low time pilots. Something in the order of a tax deduction, or a rebate for those who sponsor pilots. The Aus Gov already does this for apprenticeships and cadetships, surely it wouldnt be a hard system to set up.
This would have the benefit for low time pilots to build experience and the operators to train low time guys without bankrupting themselves to do so.
Out of curiosity what is the standard time completed after military flight training?
How long before they have a command seat? (Iknow that would vary on type)
If the military is going to be a benchmark it would be good to have some figures.
Perhaps this could be an area for the government to help out companies who sponsor low time pilots. Something in the order of a tax deduction, or a rebate for those who sponsor pilots. The Aus Gov already does this for apprenticeships and cadetships, surely it wouldnt be a hard system to set up.
This would have the benefit for low time pilots to build experience and the operators to train low time guys without bankrupting themselves to do so.
Whirlygig - this is the age-old conundrum - is flight safety cost effective? Why pass on costs to the customer to make things a little safer when they will probably be OK anyway? This is the sort of thinking (mainly by bean counters) which is suddenly reversed when your best customer is killed in an accident. Suddenly nothing can be too safe and bu88er the cost.
As most airlines will tell you, killing your passengers is really bad for business which is why they spend so much making everything double safe.
The flip side of this is that the military has an extensive flight safety empire with lots of mandatory training and briefing plus umpteen different feedback forums to get round chain of command problems - yet we still lose people/aircraft. The problem is we don't know how many we would lose if we didn't have the flight safety cover. We know some of the things we don't know but we don't know all of the things we don't know (to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld)
As most airlines will tell you, killing your passengers is really bad for business which is why they spend so much making everything double safe.
The flip side of this is that the military has an extensive flight safety empire with lots of mandatory training and briefing plus umpteen different feedback forums to get round chain of command problems - yet we still lose people/aircraft. The problem is we don't know how many we would lose if we didn't have the flight safety cover. We know some of the things we don't know but we don't know all of the things we don't know (to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld)
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I am sure that the military training methods are the best; I don't think anyone has denied that. I would just contend that the nature of their training might not NECESSARILY prepare pilots for the commercial, customer-focussed world.
However, unless I have misunderstood the economics of the (at least UK) defence budget, I would still maintain that the armed services are not releasing as many qualified pilots as they did 20-odd years ago.
All helicopter operators (in fact, all companies) exist to make a profit (otherwise they are called charities). There is no other reason for a business to exist. If, due to increased costs because of flight safety, customers go elsewhere, then that operator will lose business, and pilots and engineers will lose jobs.
Air ambulance, police, BBC etc will go back to their previous methods instead of using helicopters. All these have different methods of funding as well.
I'm afraid, Crab, that my hackles really do rise at the implication that all accountants are cost-driven; most of us have the commercial awareness to realise that there are certain aspects of a business that are harder to value and quantify; one of these being quality (in all respects).
OK, back to funding these proposals. Old-fashioned apprenticeships with bonding at the end. Needs government support and unfortunately, in the UK at least, this is unlikely to be a vote winner. Since our current government has already taken steps to make aviation more elitist; it ain't gonna happen in the short term. In order to get a prospective government on your side, they would have to be persuaded by the public that aviation is a GOOD thing and with current environmentalist lobbies, this would be difficult.
Whilst I think there is some merit in Steve76's proposals, it doesn't legislate for professional attitude and whilst most helicopter accidents are down to pilot error, is this pilot error due to lack of training or lack of "the right stuff".
Cheers
Whirlygig
However, unless I have misunderstood the economics of the (at least UK) defence budget, I would still maintain that the armed services are not releasing as many qualified pilots as they did 20-odd years ago.
All helicopter operators (in fact, all companies) exist to make a profit (otherwise they are called charities). There is no other reason for a business to exist. If, due to increased costs because of flight safety, customers go elsewhere, then that operator will lose business, and pilots and engineers will lose jobs.
Air ambulance, police, BBC etc will go back to their previous methods instead of using helicopters. All these have different methods of funding as well.
I'm afraid, Crab, that my hackles really do rise at the implication that all accountants are cost-driven; most of us have the commercial awareness to realise that there are certain aspects of a business that are harder to value and quantify; one of these being quality (in all respects).
OK, back to funding these proposals. Old-fashioned apprenticeships with bonding at the end. Needs government support and unfortunately, in the UK at least, this is unlikely to be a vote winner. Since our current government has already taken steps to make aviation more elitist; it ain't gonna happen in the short term. In order to get a prospective government on your side, they would have to be persuaded by the public that aviation is a GOOD thing and with current environmentalist lobbies, this would be difficult.
Whilst I think there is some merit in Steve76's proposals, it doesn't legislate for professional attitude and whilst most helicopter accidents are down to pilot error, is this pilot error due to lack of training or lack of "the right stuff".
Cheers
Whirlygig
Join Date: Jan 2003
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But what would be enough?
At the moment I have 500 + hrs, am IF rated (around 200hrs IFR), and fly offshore (North Sea). I'm learning a new lesson every single day and I'm grateful for the experienced captain (between 4000-14000 hrs) sitting next to me. I still consider myself as a very low time pilot (unlike others I know who have barely 200 hrs)
But at some point you have to get your license, because this enables you to learn.
I compare it with getting your driving license, you get your paper and then you start learning.
Ofcourse it is in the best interest of the flight schools and companies to promote self-awareness and self critism so you are able to say : "I'm not happy with this"
Then again if someone has 14000 hrs offshore experience and he/she wants to fly EMS, they still have to learn a whole new ballgame.
In my opinion, if you're a (helicopter)pilot, you have to be willing to learn right up to your retirement and your experience will never be enough.
DJG
At the moment I have 500 + hrs, am IF rated (around 200hrs IFR), and fly offshore (North Sea). I'm learning a new lesson every single day and I'm grateful for the experienced captain (between 4000-14000 hrs) sitting next to me. I still consider myself as a very low time pilot (unlike others I know who have barely 200 hrs)
But at some point you have to get your license, because this enables you to learn.
I compare it with getting your driving license, you get your paper and then you start learning.
Ofcourse it is in the best interest of the flight schools and companies to promote self-awareness and self critism so you are able to say : "I'm not happy with this"
Then again if someone has 14000 hrs offshore experience and he/she wants to fly EMS, they still have to learn a whole new ballgame.
In my opinion, if you're a (helicopter)pilot, you have to be willing to learn right up to your retirement and your experience will never be enough.
DJG
Spaced asked what is the length of a military course.
Well, some time has passed since i did mine, and it has likely changed, but this is how it went.
We did all our flying on the Iroquois - initially the B, then the D and the H model.
First solo was around 11 hours, course completion was about 120 hours over 11 weeks. In that time we did:
turbine endorsement
low flying endorsement
hoist endorsement
cargo hook endorsement
night flying rating
command instrument rating
formation endorsement.
And from the ground school, we knew that machine very thoroughly - but in the civil world today, an endorsement can be as little as three hours of flying and a day of ground school.
Well, some time has passed since i did mine, and it has likely changed, but this is how it went.
We did all our flying on the Iroquois - initially the B, then the D and the H model.
First solo was around 11 hours, course completion was about 120 hours over 11 weeks. In that time we did:
turbine endorsement
low flying endorsement
hoist endorsement
cargo hook endorsement
night flying rating
command instrument rating
formation endorsement.
And from the ground school, we knew that machine very thoroughly - but in the civil world today, an endorsement can be as little as three hours of flying and a day of ground school.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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I don't understand all the pre-occupation with night and instrument time.
There are 100s of VFR only commercial helicopter pilots in Canada and they seem to do quite well. The majority of the VFR fleet does not have the basic instruments to keep the aircraft upright in IMC nor are they required by regulation.
The VFR helicopter pilot only needs enough instrument time to realize that he will perish if attempting IMC flight if not properly trained or in an aircraft with out the required instruments.
Like I said early there are very professional VFR only helicopter pilots out there with no interest in ever flying at night or IMC.
There are 100s of VFR only commercial helicopter pilots in Canada and they seem to do quite well. The majority of the VFR fleet does not have the basic instruments to keep the aircraft upright in IMC nor are they required by regulation.
The VFR helicopter pilot only needs enough instrument time to realize that he will perish if attempting IMC flight if not properly trained or in an aircraft with out the required instruments.
Like I said early there are very professional VFR only helicopter pilots out there with no interest in ever flying at night or IMC.
