London overflight restrictions
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: one dot low as usual
Age: 66
Posts: 537
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Low level flying ban for London
From 27 October, aircraft and helicopters will not be able to fly below 1,400 feet unless they have been given security clearance 28 days in advance.
Link to BBC News article
Link to BBC News article
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location:
Posts: 885
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saw similar on Ceefax but can't find anything on NATS or CAA site unless I m not searching for the right keywords....
Anyone have link to the circular? This potentially wipes out some of the helilanes....
PW
Anyone have link to the circular? This potentially wipes out some of the helilanes....
PW
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Somewhere probing
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please run this by me again; i.e. just what is this new rule supposed to prevent ? ..... and just to show what a 'kin dream world our politicos live in, we've got:
and
and
Err, is it me or does this seem a bit ill-conceived ( much like the rest of the airline / airport security measures ) ?
I.e. How is one meant to tell a real police helicopter / aircraft from a fake one ? At any one moment in time, just how is Mr.Plod meant to know and address who is legitimately operating above the Capital from who is not ? Just how does one ‘close airspace’ ( other than with fighter aircraft ) ?
Imho, this is has about as much to do with counter-terrorism or ‘national security’ as does fox hunting and WMD's ( aka, Weapons of Mass Distraction ) !
It said that the transport secretary "deems it necessary, in the public interest" to restrict flying "on behalf of the Metropolitan Police for reasons of national security".
Flights to and from Heathrow and London City airports are exempt, as are police helicopters and certain other authorised aircraft.
Airspace can be closed anywhere in the UK at a moment's notice in response to a threat.
I.e. How is one meant to tell a real police helicopter / aircraft from a fake one ? At any one moment in time, just how is Mr.Plod meant to know and address who is legitimately operating above the Capital from who is not ? Just how does one ‘close airspace’ ( other than with fighter aircraft ) ?
Imho, this is has about as much to do with counter-terrorism or ‘national security’ as does fox hunting and WMD's ( aka, Weapons of Mass Distraction ) !
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hampshire UK
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The information has been taken out of context. There are three new designated areas over Central London which are restricted up to 1400ft to helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. This will not have an appreciable effect on low level operations in the London and London City Control Zones, since ATC does not normally issue clearances in these areas below 1500ft anyway. There may be a minor effect on traffic spotters, but there should be little impact on the heliroutes. Since the airspace in question is Class A and Class D, pilots are required to contact SVFR or Thames Radar for an ATC clearance to enter. Therefore all traffic in the London area will be known to these agencies. Any unidentified traffic is tracked on radar, and appropriate action taken.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,578
Received 435 Likes
on
229 Posts
ATCO 2:
<Any unidentified traffic is tracked on radar, and appropriate action taken.>
Which presumably means subsequent legal action against the pilot?
Not a lot of use if he has already crashed into a high-rise building or Buckingham Palace. This makes no sense to me and seems like a panic reaction by someone who doesn't understand the problem or has been told to "DO SOMETHING!" - so it has, for a nice tick in the box.
<Any unidentified traffic is tracked on radar, and appropriate action taken.>
Which presumably means subsequent legal action against the pilot?
Not a lot of use if he has already crashed into a high-rise building or Buckingham Palace. This makes no sense to me and seems like a panic reaction by someone who doesn't understand the problem or has been told to "DO SOMETHING!" - so it has, for a nice tick in the box.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Great Hibernia
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression (need to checkout my PPL books again...) that 1500ft. was the minimum legal alt. required over a built-up area, or large crowd/gathering anyhow, with 500 ft. elsewhere..... !
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<How is one meant to tell a real police helicopter / aircraft from a fake one ? At any one moment in time, just how is Mr.Plod meant to know and address who is legitimately operating above the Capital from who is not ? Just how does one ‘close airspace’ ( other than with fighter aircraft ) ?>>
Strange comment from someone who cliaims to be an "airline pilot". As my buddy ATCO two has said, ATC has radar and knows who is there and who is not supposed to be there. Nothing moves over central London without some sort of ATC clearance. Areas within Controlled Airspace can easily be "closed" and it is fairly routine stuff around London for all sorts of reasons - security "incidents" and the Opening of Parliament to name but two. It's NOTAM'd and ATC prevent any aircraft from entering. That's why it would be extremely easy to spot an intruder. What happens thereafter would be up to the "authorities" but there is nobody in this world who can prevent another 9/11 over London - it just is not feasible, given the very short timescale in which such an incident could occur. Even if fighters could be scrambled in time (which I doubt) are they going to shoot down an aeroplane over central London?
As for Mr Plod.. Half the calls we used to get a Heathrow were from the police asking what a particular helicopter was doing over Buck House, or some similar high-profile place... you're right - the police helicopter.
Strange comment from someone who cliaims to be an "airline pilot". As my buddy ATCO two has said, ATC has radar and knows who is there and who is not supposed to be there. Nothing moves over central London without some sort of ATC clearance. Areas within Controlled Airspace can easily be "closed" and it is fairly routine stuff around London for all sorts of reasons - security "incidents" and the Opening of Parliament to name but two. It's NOTAM'd and ATC prevent any aircraft from entering. That's why it would be extremely easy to spot an intruder. What happens thereafter would be up to the "authorities" but there is nobody in this world who can prevent another 9/11 over London - it just is not feasible, given the very short timescale in which such an incident could occur. Even if fighters could be scrambled in time (which I doubt) are they going to shoot down an aeroplane over central London?
As for Mr Plod.. Half the calls we used to get a Heathrow were from the police asking what a particular helicopter was doing over Buck House, or some similar high-profile place... you're right - the police helicopter.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All the info is contained in AIC (Mauve 134) 91/2004 which is available on the ais website.
Three restricted areas are being established around Hyde Park, City of London and the Isle of Dogs the upper limit of which is 1400 ft AMSL. These areas do not affect helicopter traffic on route H4.
The conditions applicable to flight within the Restricted Areas are contained in AIC (Yellow 148) 87/2004, again available on the ais website.
Hope this helps.
Three restricted areas are being established around Hyde Park, City of London and the Isle of Dogs the upper limit of which is 1400 ft AMSL. These areas do not affect helicopter traffic on route H4.
The conditions applicable to flight within the Restricted Areas are contained in AIC (Yellow 148) 87/2004, again available on the ais website.
Hope this helps.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hampshire UK
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ShyTorque,
You ascribe too narrow a meaning to the words "appropriate action". Enough said. And believe me, the original airspace restriction proposals were far more draconian than those that will be implemented. Whatever our feelings about the reasoning behind the decisions, we must accept them and work with them.
You ascribe too narrow a meaning to the words "appropriate action". Enough said. And believe me, the original airspace restriction proposals were far more draconian than those that will be implemented. Whatever our feelings about the reasoning behind the decisions, we must accept them and work with them.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Somewhere probing
Posts: 301
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heathrow Director - I think you might have taken what I was referring to slightly out of context as, ( aside from questioning the nature of my employment ), you've proceeded to raise the very concerns that I too have about this.
I.e. the fact that you ( with your radar ) might indeed know who is supposed to be ( or not ) in various bits of the London TMA and / or associated airspace, but that knowing such will not prevent somebody with intent from commandeering ( legally or else wise ) an aeronautical conveyance ( small or large ) then careering about overhead the Capital city and / or spearing themselves into the any building of their choosing.
Veritably, the law abiding people will indeed obey the law and some people might indeed find themselves prosecuted by it; but it’s the other buggers, the really dangerous ones, who we need to protecting from and this new edict (imho) does not offer much more in the way of significant protection from what we’ve had previously, i.e. a 9/11 could still, relatively easily, occur in London – regardless of airspace restrictions & edicts from Whitehall.
I.e. the fact that you ( with your radar ) might indeed know who is supposed to be ( or not ) in various bits of the London TMA and / or associated airspace, but that knowing such will not prevent somebody with intent from commandeering ( legally or else wise ) an aeronautical conveyance ( small or large ) then careering about overhead the Capital city and / or spearing themselves into the any building of their choosing.
Veritably, the law abiding people will indeed obey the law and some people might indeed find themselves prosecuted by it; but it’s the other buggers, the really dangerous ones, who we need to protecting from and this new edict (imho) does not offer much more in the way of significant protection from what we’ve had previously, i.e. a 9/11 could still, relatively easily, occur in London – regardless of airspace restrictions & edicts from Whitehall.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Chelmsford
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where this will hurt will be for the girls and boys inbound/outbound from Battersea on Direct tracks or via Brent in their twins. Also for those inbound/outbound on H4 having to hold for City when they are on Easterlies and the weather is marginal. All the Non Standard Flight clearences are also changing on the 20/10/04 (Whiskey numbers), so operators be prepared. Good to see there was consultation on this!.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why will it hurt the boys and girls coming in from Brent to Battersea - the clearance is LEVEL AT 1500 feet?
It will definitely affect the NSF operations - not sure how you plan 28 days in advance for a task which could be very late in coming.
It will definitely affect the NSF operations - not sure how you plan 28 days in advance for a task which could be very late in coming.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Hampshire UK
Age: 70
Posts: 557
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi greenarrow,
Direct track clearances are not given below 1500ft in CTR East, the restricted areas go up to 1400ft, so where is the problem? There may be slightly greater delays on H4 when City are on Easterlies and the weather conditions preclude VFR, but otherwise there will be limited impact.
Direct track clearances are not given below 1500ft in CTR East, the restricted areas go up to 1400ft, so where is the problem? There may be slightly greater delays on H4 when City are on Easterlies and the weather conditions preclude VFR, but otherwise there will be limited impact.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Chelmsford
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Think about it, 1500ft no descent until almost in the Battersea overhead, No cruise climb to be level at 1500ft. It will be circle to climb in the overhead. Ali Paly inbounds and out bound will have to be aware of the restrictions sometimes asked by Thames and City not an easy task when the pressure is on. And no doubt our friends in the glass house will find ways of chasing a prosecution. 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And since we all know that 1500ft is the ANO legal lower limit over a built up area. How, apparently recently, did an Islander do banner towing over London, at apparently, 1000ft? Isn't that a case to ponder? Isn't a potential 700kgs load a worry for Mr Plod or anyone with security worries? In my view this view from on high has no meaning or purpose.
I agree with DA in his wise words. Good points there sir.
Btw HD I can tell you that DA IS an airline pilot. Known him for years.
Oh and one more thing HD you quoted this:
I have a great respect for you and your mates but you can't - can you. Not really. Not if somone is determined.
I agree with DA in his wise words. Good points there sir.
Btw HD I can tell you that DA IS an airline pilot. Known him for years.
Oh and one more thing HD you quoted this:
It's NOTAM'd and ATC prevent any aircraft from entering. (London).
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<I have a great respect for you and your mates but you can't - can you. Not really. Not if somone is determined.>>
No, ATC can't. I believe I made that point when I said nobody in this world can prevent a 9/11. However, under normal circumstances ATC can refuse clearance and 99.999% of pilots would accept that.
I didn't mean to doubt DA's bona fides... it's just that I've heard pilots ask such amazing questions that I misunderstood. No disrespect intended.
No, ATC can't. I believe I made that point when I said nobody in this world can prevent a 9/11. However, under normal circumstances ATC can refuse clearance and 99.999% of pilots would accept that.
I didn't mean to doubt DA's bona fides... it's just that I've heard pilots ask such amazing questions that I misunderstood. No disrespect intended.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe I am showing my ignorance here, but BRENT-LW crosses just to the Western extremity of R157 - and according to my map from Mauve 134 - means you are clear of R157 with 1.5 miles to run to the LS.
Therefore, given the extra track mileage for a right/left base final (not massive I will concede) means that you have about 2miles to drop from 1401 feet to landing.
Is that unworkable?
Again, showing my ignorance, but can you not make 1401 feet after 1.5-2nm from take-off?
I am sure there is someone here who was around when the specified area came in to play. (apart from ATCO Two!)
Interested to hear how that was dealt with. (when was it brought in??)
Therefore, given the extra track mileage for a right/left base final (not massive I will concede) means that you have about 2miles to drop from 1401 feet to landing.
Is that unworkable?
Again, showing my ignorance, but can you not make 1401 feet after 1.5-2nm from take-off?
I am sure there is someone here who was around when the specified area came in to play. (apart from ATCO Two!)
Interested to hear how that was dealt with. (when was it brought in??)
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Always Travelling, Never Arriving
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Birdbrain
with an SVFR clearance you can elbow the 1500' bit but not the glide clear.
sB
PS: The Lea Valley aint a legitimate place to land in a single in the event of an engine failure as per one of the GASILs from last year.
with an SVFR clearance you can elbow the 1500' bit but not the glide clear.
sB
PS: The Lea Valley aint a legitimate place to land in a single in the event of an engine failure as per one of the GASILs from last year.