Agusta A109
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,670
Likes: 1
From: UK
Flight safety: thats too logical for the Italian's.
As long as the finished product looks good, thats all that counts
Cars, women, houses...............
Whats going on inside is a completely different matter.
Name me ONE reliable italian car?
Restored houses in Italy that are the equivalent to our grade I's and II's have to comply with very strict cosmetic regs, but you can do what the hell you like inside them..Char white pine woodwork to make it look old, use breezeblock cladding, plastic internal doors etc etc...they dont care because you can't see it.
Let's not even discuss Italian women! I'm married to one!
dare I say the same with helos...
The 109 looks the biz, but it leaks like a sieve. The cabin area is an ergonomic nightmare...and now it seems critical components aren't even labelled correctly
What's new........
As long as the finished product looks good, thats all that counts
Cars, women, houses...............
Whats going on inside is a completely different matter.
Name me ONE reliable italian car?
Restored houses in Italy that are the equivalent to our grade I's and II's have to comply with very strict cosmetic regs, but you can do what the hell you like inside them..Char white pine woodwork to make it look old, use breezeblock cladding, plastic internal doors etc etc...they dont care because you can't see it.
Let's not even discuss Italian women! I'm married to one!
dare I say the same with helos...
The 109 looks the biz, but it leaks like a sieve. The cabin area is an ergonomic nightmare...and now it seems critical components aren't even labelled correctly
What's new........
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: UK
TC : I can only laugh at your blinkered attitude, do Eurocopter bring the hypnotist guy from Little Britain to visit with you on a regular basis: 'Look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, into the eyes, your under... all competitor aircraft are rubbish and should be slated at every opportunity, 3, 2, 1 your back in the room!!!!'
As for the reliability of Italian cars, I would guess that they are of a simiar reliability standard to those built in France.
And just to clarify a few points raised, the 109 Power does not 'leak like a sieve' and quite how the cabin is an ergonomic disaster is anyones guess, bearing in mind that it does have a seperate baggage bay, unlike some aircraft, in VIP format has a 5/6 seat 3fwd facing, 3aft facing config, has twin litter full head to toe patient access in EMS roles and has various and quickly re-roleable police fit.
As for the reliability of Italian cars, I would guess that they are of a simiar reliability standard to those built in France.
And just to clarify a few points raised, the 109 Power does not 'leak like a sieve' and quite how the cabin is an ergonomic disaster is anyones guess, bearing in mind that it does have a seperate baggage bay, unlike some aircraft, in VIP format has a 5/6 seat 3fwd facing, 3aft facing config, has twin litter full head to toe patient access in EMS roles and has various and quickly re-roleable police fit.
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
John
Thanks for the picture, Buggar me if I can tell the difference from one end to the other, and so I would not (based on this picture) spot that on a walk round either.
Why bother Stamping/painting/etching etc, just make it reversable
Does any one know if Agusta has rectified the problem or is it waiting to bite again.
Max
Thanks for the picture, Buggar me if I can tell the difference from one end to the other, and so I would not (based on this picture) spot that on a walk round either.
Why bother Stamping/painting/etching etc, just make it reversable
Does any one know if Agusta has rectified the problem or is it waiting to bite again.
Max
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
In the photo...I can see all sorts of ways to install the bit...
There are markings on the thing..now is that only on that face of it...or is there similar markings on the opposite side? Does the markings go facing the camera...facing away from the camera....or same choices but rotated so the markings are on the underside and then same questions.....
Now if I was educated and had learned to work with my brains like an engineer instead of with my hands like a pilot....I would know that answer. Right?
There are markings on the thing..now is that only on that face of it...or is there similar markings on the opposite side? Does the markings go facing the camera...facing away from the camera....or same choices but rotated so the markings are on the underside and then same questions.....
Now if I was educated and had learned to work with my brains like an engineer instead of with my hands like a pilot....I would know that answer. Right?
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 739
Likes: 0
From: Dallas, TX USA
Looking at the link more closely, the part appears to be a casting. Wny not just "cast" an arrow and "this end up" onto the part, since the part number appears to be cast into the part already? If the part number can be "cast" into the link, than surely a simple (and inexpensive) modification of the mold can be made to cast in an arrow and 3 short words.
MaxNg, it may not be possible to make the link reversible, based on the engineering requirements of the link.
MaxNg, it may not be possible to make the link reversible, based on the engineering requirements of the link.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
I would guess that they are of a simiar reliability standard to those built in France
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
The CAA agreed a couple of weeks ago. We are in the process of discussing what engineering input we'd like in between the 400. Probably go for a Check A by an engineer every couple of weeks or so.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
From: On the Edge
Impressive
I must admit Mighty Gem that it is an impressive figure
I personally would be uncomfortable with it.
I think 200-250hr would still be an excellent figure and I would be happy to fly it under those conditions.
I have flown the 135 only a couple of times (not rated)
But the head and freston design really impressed me.
From what I remember both the MT and TR gearbox can run for some time without oil.
400hrs is a long time (dependant on usage I agree)
What about time (ie) 60 day ?
I personally would be uncomfortable with it.
I think 200-250hr would still be an excellent figure and I would be happy to fly it under those conditions.
I have flown the 135 only a couple of times (not rated)
But the head and freston design really impressed me.
From what I remember both the MT and TR gearbox can run for some time without oil.
400hrs is a long time (dependant on usage I agree)
What about time (ie) 60 day ?
Last edited by OEI and Still Flying; 4th March 2005 at 20:33.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
Re the A109 scissor link, I think the lower arm (without the castings) is the culprit for inadvertant fitting. If you look at the photo, if it were fitted back to front, the lower section would no longer be vertical to the bushing. The resultant stress would lead to a break around the angle, I'd say.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 642
Likes: 2
From: daworld
Hmmm... Interesting thread.
Not sure if blaming Agusta is a good idea, or a solution. I remember on my Bell 212/412 Engineer course, the Bell instructor reminding us that the word "TOP" that was cast into the 412 collective lever, actually had to be installed facing down!!. It took Bell a number of years to change this little error, which could have had disastrous consequences. Every helicopter I have worked on (Bell 47/205/212/412, AS350/355, BK117, AB139) has mistakes in the Maintenance Manuals. Eurocopter and Kawasaki would send out a revision CDROM every few months. Bell would send out a fax to be inserted facing the affected pages. For the record, Agusta have colour coded critical flight control parts on the AB139 (Scissor levers and the like), so that the risk of fitting them incorrectly is minimised. I asked a guy who used to work in the factory at Bell why they always sent out 412's with screws in the firewalls, when the first job we would do was to take out all those screws, biff them, and replace them with bolts. We did this so that in a few years, when you go to change an engine, you can actually get the firewall fasteners out. The head on a screw will round out, but a bolt won't. Anyway, this guy explained that they fitted screws because that is what the drawing showed, and they wouldn't change the drawing because the cost involved in changing the drawing was prohibitive. You must remember, that changing a drawing may involve recertification of the machine. Easier and cheaper to revise the Maint Manual, or send out a Tech Bulletin.
I agree with the comments about training. It seems every company makes a big issue about proficiency, training and duty time for pilots, but all too often engineering is overlooked, until and accident happens.
Do you guys know that if you are flying in the Middle East, you are flying machines maintained by good engineers, but those guys work 56 days in a row, with NO days off, and shifts that change EVERYDAY. That would never be allowed for flight crew, so why for maintenance? A bit offtopic I know, but perhaps fatigue played a part in this incident.
noooby
Not sure if blaming Agusta is a good idea, or a solution. I remember on my Bell 212/412 Engineer course, the Bell instructor reminding us that the word "TOP" that was cast into the 412 collective lever, actually had to be installed facing down!!. It took Bell a number of years to change this little error, which could have had disastrous consequences. Every helicopter I have worked on (Bell 47/205/212/412, AS350/355, BK117, AB139) has mistakes in the Maintenance Manuals. Eurocopter and Kawasaki would send out a revision CDROM every few months. Bell would send out a fax to be inserted facing the affected pages. For the record, Agusta have colour coded critical flight control parts on the AB139 (Scissor levers and the like), so that the risk of fitting them incorrectly is minimised. I asked a guy who used to work in the factory at Bell why they always sent out 412's with screws in the firewalls, when the first job we would do was to take out all those screws, biff them, and replace them with bolts. We did this so that in a few years, when you go to change an engine, you can actually get the firewall fasteners out. The head on a screw will round out, but a bolt won't. Anyway, this guy explained that they fitted screws because that is what the drawing showed, and they wouldn't change the drawing because the cost involved in changing the drawing was prohibitive. You must remember, that changing a drawing may involve recertification of the machine. Easier and cheaper to revise the Maint Manual, or send out a Tech Bulletin.
I agree with the comments about training. It seems every company makes a big issue about proficiency, training and duty time for pilots, but all too often engineering is overlooked, until and accident happens.
Do you guys know that if you are flying in the Middle East, you are flying machines maintained by good engineers, but those guys work 56 days in a row, with NO days off, and shifts that change EVERYDAY. That would never be allowed for flight crew, so why for maintenance? A bit offtopic I know, but perhaps fatigue played a part in this incident.
noooby
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
From: The Daylight Saving Free Zone
If it can happen, it will.
John. that was what I was wondering. The installation would only be 'visually' different to the experienced.
If the manufacturer is making parts that will easily fit when incorrectly assembled, then the manuals must have appropiate warnings in the procedure.
Mores the pity when in some cases the manual is NOT referred to, either because the job has been breifly explained but details not made clear, or because it looks too simple to bother reading about.
If the manufacturer is making parts that will easily fit when incorrectly assembled, then the manuals must have appropiate warnings in the procedure.
Mores the pity when in some cases the manual is NOT referred to, either because the job has been breifly explained but details not made clear, or because it looks too simple to bother reading about.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: cloud 9
A109e Power engine mode switch use during autorotation
My company is just about to convert to the power and i would like to know what experiences any of you have when using the Engine Mode Switches from flight to idle when practicing autos?
All my experience to now has either been rolling off throttles or pulling back on power levers and the idea of reaching down to turn a couple of switches
instead of using the PLA feels a bit odd to say the least 
Anyone like to share the experience? how quickly does it spool up the engines when recovering? anyone doing autos to the ground!!!! etc.
Great fun to fly so far
All my experience to now has either been rolling off throttles or pulling back on power levers and the idea of reaching down to turn a couple of switches
instead of using the PLA feels a bit odd to say the least Anyone like to share the experience? how quickly does it spool up the engines when recovering? anyone doing autos to the ground!!!! etc.
Great fun to fly so far
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Now Splash that just isn't exactly so....I have received some very useful advice here and have prospered quite nicely.
Ever since I quit wearing brown shoes with a blue suit....well things have improved nicely.
Also...when told to "go ugly...early!" and following that advice...well bluntly I am going home with more money in my pocket and am having just as much fun if you get my drift.
As to winding up dead from using advice from this forum....well I just don't see that happening assuming one filters that advice and takes the useful or valuable and leaves the other behind.
Would you not agree? After all the price costs of the advice here is quite reasonable.
Ever since I quit wearing brown shoes with a blue suit....well things have improved nicely.
Also...when told to "go ugly...early!" and following that advice...well bluntly I am going home with more money in my pocket and am having just as much fun if you get my drift.
As to winding up dead from using advice from this forum....well I just don't see that happening assuming one filters that advice and takes the useful or valuable and leaves the other behind.
Would you not agree? After all the price costs of the advice here is quite reasonable.