What's happening at MD Helicopters?
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M D Helicopters
What's happening at the MD factory? Are they still making the 600 and 900? Are spares readily available.?
One doesn't hear much about them anymore.
One doesn't hear much about them anymore.
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Hmm... funny you should ask... unattributable story doing the rounds at Farnborough was a debt ratio of 450%. 
Perhaps waiting on the possibly feasible big MH-6 order, but how much profit to be made there? How much longer can RDM support it?
What's happening to the 900 line - should we ask about the Dutch Police order....? Should we ask why every UK police operator of the 900 (bar one) is currently showing at least some interest in the EC145?
And 600s - they were saying the Turkish guys were going to get theirs, but no trumpeting of any deliveries (and boy, do they need to polish that trumpet, it's not had much use in ages)
Then their own back yard ex-friendly law enforcement unit goes and buys from another manufacturer for the first time ever!
Would be sad to see them go, but how much is the NOTAR trademark worth?
Perhaps waiting on the possibly feasible big MH-6 order, but how much profit to be made there? How much longer can RDM support it?What's happening to the 900 line - should we ask about the Dutch Police order....? Should we ask why every UK police operator of the 900 (bar one) is currently showing at least some interest in the EC145?
And 600s - they were saying the Turkish guys were going to get theirs, but no trumpeting of any deliveries (and boy, do they need to polish that trumpet, it's not had much use in ages)
Then their own back yard ex-friendly law enforcement unit goes and buys from another manufacturer for the first time ever!
Would be sad to see them go, but how much is the NOTAR trademark worth?
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Is MD standing in the dinosaur queue?
One doesn't like to see helicopter manufacturers go out of business because the product support fails with it.
So what is the biggest failing of the MD product?
I think that the interest in the 145 is due to the fact that the 145 must be the answer to police/ems situation as the other small twins are really not up to the police/ems tasks.The 135/900/109 are the best there was, now I see it that the 145/109S are the likely replacements for these old models.
One doesn't like to see helicopter manufacturers go out of business because the product support fails with it.
So what is the biggest failing of the MD product?
I think that the interest in the 145 is due to the fact that the 145 must be the answer to police/ems situation as the other small twins are really not up to the police/ems tasks.The 135/900/109 are the best there was, now I see it that the 145/109S are the likely replacements for these old models.
MD Helicopters announced the delivery of a couple of MD600Ns to Turkey at the recent ALEA Annual conference at Charleston.
There are three show dailies in pdf format to be downloaded from the Home Page of www.alea.org - one of which mentions it.
Other than that I am unaware of a press release specific to these deliveries.
Must ask!
There are three show dailies in pdf format to be downloaded from the Home Page of www.alea.org - one of which mentions it.
Other than that I am unaware of a press release specific to these deliveries.
Must ask!
I did ask and the reply came pretty briskly. It seems odd they did not shout about it - but at HAI they mentioned the delivery was due [along with a few others that have NOT appeared] so perhaps they thought enough was enough.
Turkish National Police Take Delivery of 2 MD 600N Helicopters
CHARLOTTE, N.C., July 21, 2004 — MD Helicopters, Inc. (MDHI) opened its sixth appearance at the Airborne Law Enforcement Association (ALEA) convention with good news — a two-helicopter delivery.
Turkish National Police (TNP) have taken delivery of two MD 600Ns for airborne law enforcement. The helicopters are currently operating in Turkey. Eight more MD 600Ns will be delivered to the TNP in 2004.
The helicopters are equipped with moving map global positioning systems, secure voice systems, television cameras, forward looking infrared, wire strike protection and searchlights.
The TNP, the principal civil agency devoted to security and law enforcement in Turkey, selected the MD 600N after a thorough evaluation and technical review of four single-engine helicopters. The helicopters will handle a variety of police missions for the nation, with air support bases in Adana, Diyarbakir, Golbasi, Istanbul, and Eskisehir. Missions will include search and rescue, surveillance, SWAT, drug interdiction, patrol, pursuit, and VIP transport.
Fifty-seven MD 600Ns have accumulated more than 70,000 hours since the first aircraft were delivered in 1997.
MDHI began an aggressive program to improve the MD 600N shortly after acquiring the commercial light helicopter product line from The Boeing Company in 1999. The addition of a number of improvements, including a Yaw Stability Augmentation System (Y-SAS) have enhanced the handling characteristics of the aircraft.
The seven-to-eight-place, single-engine MD 600N tackles multiple missions with high performance and low direct operating costs. Known for its versatile, spacious interior, the MD 600N is the choice of utility operators, airborne law enforcers and other discriminating buyers. Standard equipment includes the NOTAR anti-torque system and FADEC engine control.
........
The 600 never really recovered from being rejected by both the Border Patrol and LA County Sheriff.
Turkish National Police Take Delivery of 2 MD 600N Helicopters
CHARLOTTE, N.C., July 21, 2004 — MD Helicopters, Inc. (MDHI) opened its sixth appearance at the Airborne Law Enforcement Association (ALEA) convention with good news — a two-helicopter delivery.
Turkish National Police (TNP) have taken delivery of two MD 600Ns for airborne law enforcement. The helicopters are currently operating in Turkey. Eight more MD 600Ns will be delivered to the TNP in 2004.
The helicopters are equipped with moving map global positioning systems, secure voice systems, television cameras, forward looking infrared, wire strike protection and searchlights.
The TNP, the principal civil agency devoted to security and law enforcement in Turkey, selected the MD 600N after a thorough evaluation and technical review of four single-engine helicopters. The helicopters will handle a variety of police missions for the nation, with air support bases in Adana, Diyarbakir, Golbasi, Istanbul, and Eskisehir. Missions will include search and rescue, surveillance, SWAT, drug interdiction, patrol, pursuit, and VIP transport.
Fifty-seven MD 600Ns have accumulated more than 70,000 hours since the first aircraft were delivered in 1997.
MDHI began an aggressive program to improve the MD 600N shortly after acquiring the commercial light helicopter product line from The Boeing Company in 1999. The addition of a number of improvements, including a Yaw Stability Augmentation System (Y-SAS) have enhanced the handling characteristics of the aircraft.
The seven-to-eight-place, single-engine MD 600N tackles multiple missions with high performance and low direct operating costs. Known for its versatile, spacious interior, the MD 600N is the choice of utility operators, airborne law enforcers and other discriminating buyers. Standard equipment includes the NOTAR anti-torque system and FADEC engine control.
........
The 600 never really recovered from being rejected by both the Border Patrol and LA County Sheriff.
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Why do I get the feeling of a hidden agenda here?
Has someone been asked to enquire about future purchases for their new up and coming unit and would like most up to date hardware, not one of the options given to them?
902/135/109 not up to the job? ..........Really!?
Everyone has their opinion on type, but to say that all these types aren't up to the job, is a bit much to say the least.
What is the benefit of a larger aircraft?
In the US they use Robinsons/350s to get the job done.
Here in the UK we use small twins to do the job, because we have to use twins.
What is the justification in using a larger twin?
The ability to carry more casualties? Stop, Arrest and Transport criminals to the nick?
Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.
Ok, name them.
I know of no interest except from London Hems who are looking at all types available as you would expect.
Cynical old me thinks that this is some sort of attempt at getting a 145 into the market place by slagging off the rest. More than likely by someone who has probably not flown all of the 3 types mentioned earlier in role.
It would be interesting to know if anyone from Eurocopter or McAlpine management are on this thread.
Of course all IMHO
Has someone been asked to enquire about future purchases for their new up and coming unit and would like most up to date hardware, not one of the options given to them?
902/135/109 not up to the job? ..........Really!?
Everyone has their opinion on type, but to say that all these types aren't up to the job, is a bit much to say the least.
What is the benefit of a larger aircraft?
In the US they use Robinsons/350s to get the job done.
Here in the UK we use small twins to do the job, because we have to use twins.
What is the justification in using a larger twin?
The ability to carry more casualties? Stop, Arrest and Transport criminals to the nick?
Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.
Should we ask why every UK police operator of the 900 (bar one) is currently showing at least some interest in the EC145?
I know of no interest except from London Hems who are looking at all types available as you would expect.
Cynical old me thinks that this is some sort of attempt at getting a 145 into the market place by slagging off the rest. More than likely by someone who has probably not flown all of the 3 types mentioned earlier in role.
It would be interesting to know if anyone from Eurocopter or McAlpine management are on this thread.
Of course all IMHO
Size matters.
And politics of course.
This is nothing to do with American practice. They use the 350 because they are allowed to. They are also allowed to carry part of a firearms team externally if they choose to. CAA would have kittens. However it should be noted that the number of twins being ordered over there is rising. In general the R44 fleet is a small township patrol craft circling a town the size of Coventry in dizzy circles. Not quite UKP ideas of operations.
It seems that in some [most] cases the original spec. for upgrading to the 900/135/109 required a capability of carrying a firearms team. No-one was really too bothered when most of the current fleet were ordered but 9-11 has made someone pay more attention to the problem. Not necessarily leading to again upping the size of the final choice for each of the trio is going upward to 3,000kg anyway.
It is a matter of argument but all of them failed to carry enough bodies for said firearms team. All could carry a section of officers but not enough far enough etc. Two/three in a firearms team is not really worth bothering with on scene. Five or six makes more sense. Currently he only UKP helicopter with that capability is the Devon & Cornwall BK117.
Of the others the 355 was pointless, but the 900 was undoubtedly the best by far and just about covered the base requirement. Unfortunately it had this little spares/support problem that results in unacceptable downtime. Result is that they might decide to look at an alternative type. Not the 109 or the 135 for obvious political reasons [already rejected being one].
The 135 was nearly there but headroom at the back was an issue and of course climbing the stairs [the high skids] presented its own problems in a Health and Safety point of view.
109 similar [or worse] height/volume of cabin problem.
So that leaves the 145 [and the EH101 I guess!] so this is where they are looking and I will not seek to prejudge the issue.
Politics is a major issue with all this. It would not be 'sensible' for an officer directly involved in ordering one type to be so connected to the purchase of an alternative type that was on the original list. So either there has to be a change of hierarchy or a change of airframe - or both.
I do not think McAlpine have anyone on Pprune these days, but I am not sure.
And politics of course.
This is nothing to do with American practice. They use the 350 because they are allowed to. They are also allowed to carry part of a firearms team externally if they choose to. CAA would have kittens. However it should be noted that the number of twins being ordered over there is rising. In general the R44 fleet is a small township patrol craft circling a town the size of Coventry in dizzy circles. Not quite UKP ideas of operations.
It seems that in some [most] cases the original spec. for upgrading to the 900/135/109 required a capability of carrying a firearms team. No-one was really too bothered when most of the current fleet were ordered but 9-11 has made someone pay more attention to the problem. Not necessarily leading to again upping the size of the final choice for each of the trio is going upward to 3,000kg anyway.
It is a matter of argument but all of them failed to carry enough bodies for said firearms team. All could carry a section of officers but not enough far enough etc. Two/three in a firearms team is not really worth bothering with on scene. Five or six makes more sense. Currently he only UKP helicopter with that capability is the Devon & Cornwall BK117.
Of the others the 355 was pointless, but the 900 was undoubtedly the best by far and just about covered the base requirement. Unfortunately it had this little spares/support problem that results in unacceptable downtime. Result is that they might decide to look at an alternative type. Not the 109 or the 135 for obvious political reasons [already rejected being one].
The 135 was nearly there but headroom at the back was an issue and of course climbing the stairs [the high skids] presented its own problems in a Health and Safety point of view.
109 similar [or worse] height/volume of cabin problem.
So that leaves the 145 [and the EH101 I guess!] so this is where they are looking and I will not seek to prejudge the issue.
Politics is a major issue with all this. It would not be 'sensible' for an officer directly involved in ordering one type to be so connected to the purchase of an alternative type that was on the original list. So either there has to be a change of hierarchy or a change of airframe - or both.
I do not think McAlpine have anyone on Pprune these days, but I am not sure.
A comment on Jack's item on the A109 for Phoenix.
As I read it that acquisition does not seem to suggest they are replacing their MD520N fleet with the Power. This is a new SAR requirement with the local fire department.
If anything though it does suggest that Phoenix have rejected the Explorer.
Some further thoughts on the potential of the EC145 that came to mind overnight relate to accomodation. I suspect that 'Grandfather Rights' will make it work but, if it is assumed that sticking a firearms team in an EC145 will require them to all have JAR stroking/crashworthy seats I think it will not work if they are over 6 feet [1.9M] tall. If they sit 'on the floor' it should work.
In the Euro environment this could not work in a 135 because it is pure JAR27 and [as I understand it] stroking seats for all aboard are required. Vive la BK117C2.........
Anyone want to insert the Bell 427 and the AB139 into the assessment?
As I read it that acquisition does not seem to suggest they are replacing their MD520N fleet with the Power. This is a new SAR requirement with the local fire department.
If anything though it does suggest that Phoenix have rejected the Explorer.
Some further thoughts on the potential of the EC145 that came to mind overnight relate to accomodation. I suspect that 'Grandfather Rights' will make it work but, if it is assumed that sticking a firearms team in an EC145 will require them to all have JAR stroking/crashworthy seats I think it will not work if they are over 6 feet [1.9M] tall. If they sit 'on the floor' it should work.
In the Euro environment this could not work in a 135 because it is pure JAR27 and [as I understand it] stroking seats for all aboard are required. Vive la BK117C2.........
Anyone want to insert the Bell 427 and the AB139 into the assessment?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
In general the R44 fleet is a small township patrol craft circling a town the size of Coventry in dizzy circles. Not quite UKP ideas of operations.
Anyway, Firearms teams;
What do you expect to carry? Notice carry, as any expenditure of munitions is forbidden. (PAOM Pt 1)
Obviously PAOM part 2 's differ from unit to unit, but I doubt that simply the number of arms allowed to be carried on any one flight are excessive enough to warrant a large aircraft.
How many people do you need to carry? Just yesterday we were flying 6 pob with flight times in excess of 30 mins +25 Cel. Plenty long enough to reach the edge of the force area and back and some.
Looking at todays figures, by taking the Ops console out to fit in the extra seat, I could carry 6 in the back (tot 7 pob),all with stroking seats, and have a flying time of 40 minutes. In addition to carrying normal a/c stores.
Maybe the problems will start when the team requires the other equipment, ladders hydraulic rigs, etc etc. But I'm sure there would be time for a couple of round trips if that was the case!
A bit of flight planning goes a long way. (Then again I accept no planning survives contact with the enemy!)
p.s. It also suggests that Phoenix rejected the 135/145 etc, plus, I didn't realise that units had to buy from their nearest manufacturer.
Please note I wrote 'In general the R44 fleet ..........'
Perhaps Coventry was a bad choice. US cities may be 'small' but they use a lot of land.... Something very much smaller than Coventry is what I was really alluding to. Populations of some R44 users are in the 100,000 class but can be spread - or joined to neighbours. Either way I guess you would get pretty bored buzzing your 900 around such a place.
Perhaps Coventry was a bad choice. US cities may be 'small' but they use a lot of land.... Something very much smaller than Coventry is what I was really alluding to. Populations of some R44 users are in the 100,000 class but can be spread - or joined to neighbours. Either way I guess you would get pretty bored buzzing your 900 around such a place.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
PAN,
Perhaps if you have over estimated the size of the town, you have over estimated the size of helicopter needed to police it.
If a force area was the size of a town like, lets say Rugby (pop 62,000), then it probably wouldn't be able to afford even a Robinson. If that was the case, the whole town could be cordoned off after every incident and the force microlight could be called in.
Nah!! didn't yesterday.
Perhaps if you have over estimated the size of the town, you have over estimated the size of helicopter needed to police it.
If a force area was the size of a town like, lets say Rugby (pop 62,000), then it probably wouldn't be able to afford even a Robinson. If that was the case, the whole town could be cordoned off after every incident and the force microlight could be called in.
Either way I guess you would get pretty bored buzzing your 900 around such a place.
[As you are undoubtedly aware] There has been a resolute UK faction out there who promote singles [even the R44] for looking after the big bits of the job that do not require a twin. Panda car stuff. Maybe they would need to stand-off the town centre robbery and 'peer' in electronically but many Uk towns would stand that easily. I suspect that air support in the wastes of Scotland [what little there is] relies on PLM 350 singles far more than the news tells us.
Its all about money of course.... I wonder at how these tiny US cities [often just small towns] can afford to run their own air support.
The main reasons are obvious of course, everything comes a lot cheaper .... the fuel in particular .... and of course all those OH-58s.... volunteer pilots ...... all the things the CAA wrings its hands about.
Its all about money of course.... I wonder at how these tiny US cities [often just small towns] can afford to run their own air support.
The main reasons are obvious of course, everything comes a lot cheaper .... the fuel in particular .... and of course all those OH-58s.... volunteer pilots ...... all the things the CAA wrings its hands about.
Hi Nick
Not bad. One of our crewmen a "Brit" tipped me off to this site. It is head and shoulders above Just Helicopters. I am working on a "you won't believe this" 53 project. We have 2 CH-53D's that we are retro-fitting with internal tanks for fire fighting. I will deliver the first aircraft from Tucson to San Bernardino in about two weeks. We hope to be up and running for next year's season. In the mean time I am flyiing "Sikorsky" not Erickson cranes. Great Machines.
Congradulations on the Canadian deal. I hope it sticks.
Jack
Congradulations on the Canadian deal. I hope it sticks.
Jack
PANews...
Your comment about HSE concerns over "climbing the steps" hit a nerve...I just left an outfit that was involved in protecting a very sensitive nuclear facility....and continually degraded our abilities to perform the mission based upon HSE concerns.
Now I ask you...if you are sending armed officers into a situation where they are quite likely to kill or be killed in close combat with an armed hostile gunman or gunmen (oh, sorry....gun persons)...why can we not accept the fact some of the less than twinkle toed of the bunch might stub a toe or twist an ankle either in training or while performing the mission?
Am I missing something here? To quote a very well known US SpecOps commander...."We ain't making cornflakes here!"
Your comment about HSE concerns over "climbing the steps" hit a nerve...I just left an outfit that was involved in protecting a very sensitive nuclear facility....and continually degraded our abilities to perform the mission based upon HSE concerns.
Now I ask you...if you are sending armed officers into a situation where they are quite likely to kill or be killed in close combat with an armed hostile gunman or gunmen (oh, sorry....gun persons)...why can we not accept the fact some of the less than twinkle toed of the bunch might stub a toe or twist an ankle either in training or while performing the mission?
Am I missing something here? To quote a very well known US SpecOps commander...."We ain't making cornflakes here!"
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Is this thread going off at a tangent?
Subject heading is about what's happening at MD.
We hear all sorts of things, like lots of 900's on order, poor spares reports, upgrades etc.
Subject heading is about what's happening at MD.
We hear all sorts of things, like lots of 900's on order, poor spares reports, upgrades etc.
Is this thread going off at a tangent?
Yes!
Subject heading is about what's happening at MD.
I think that was covered in the first post! Notalot.
We hear all sorts of things, like lots of 900's on order.....
MD have been claiming lots of 900s on order ..... forever ... and in truth there are those elusive 'big' orders out there.
The FBI are having 50, or was it 100, but they have not ordered them. As far as I am aware they have one and are ordering more [subject to liking what they have?] piecemeal.
We have been here before with the Border Patrol MD600N fleet. It never reached the figure claimed before they switched to buying the AS350.... they had simply not ordered that number claimed - it seems MD were counting the options to boost the numbers. You can do that if most times when the options are delivered but unluckily for MD in most instances the options are not being taken up. A result is damage to perception.
Real delivered 900 orders are stuck around 100 [c/n up to about 120 but lots of test airframes etc] and the log jam has yet to be cleared.
poor spares reports, upgrades etc......
Spares require investment and MD is very short of cash. 900s break as often as the other airframes [well maybe a bit more often] but a lack of spares means that the customer is grounded whilst they are sourced, paid for and delivered. Any problems that other manufacturers might throw money at to solve tend to remain problems because there is no money to throw at them so some faults tend to reappear.
This takes us to the upgrade.... secret territory really, who knows what is really going on! All we know the weight upgrade upon which the Netherlands Police aircraft rely [8 airframes on order] is still not getting there [yet]. I suspect it is again the lack of money that means there are insufficient tech resources. It can be done - the 135 and 109S prove that - but EC and AW have money and people.
Salvation for MDs money worries may lie in the US Army Little Bird contract... but that is 2007.... lots of days till then.
On the earlier comment about Phoenix buying AW rather than MD ... it is not that they have to buy its just that political pressure would tend to require a 'home' buy .... There is probaly a link between MD being local and the fact that the largest MD920N fleet in law enforcement is in Arizona....
The fact that this political pressure did not happen this time may well be technical ......... but is it?
Enough?
Yes!
Subject heading is about what's happening at MD.
I think that was covered in the first post! Notalot.
We hear all sorts of things, like lots of 900's on order.....
MD have been claiming lots of 900s on order ..... forever ... and in truth there are those elusive 'big' orders out there.
The FBI are having 50, or was it 100, but they have not ordered them. As far as I am aware they have one and are ordering more [subject to liking what they have?] piecemeal.
We have been here before with the Border Patrol MD600N fleet. It never reached the figure claimed before they switched to buying the AS350.... they had simply not ordered that number claimed - it seems MD were counting the options to boost the numbers. You can do that if most times when the options are delivered but unluckily for MD in most instances the options are not being taken up. A result is damage to perception.
Real delivered 900 orders are stuck around 100 [c/n up to about 120 but lots of test airframes etc] and the log jam has yet to be cleared.
poor spares reports, upgrades etc......
Spares require investment and MD is very short of cash. 900s break as often as the other airframes [well maybe a bit more often] but a lack of spares means that the customer is grounded whilst they are sourced, paid for and delivered. Any problems that other manufacturers might throw money at to solve tend to remain problems because there is no money to throw at them so some faults tend to reappear.
This takes us to the upgrade.... secret territory really, who knows what is really going on! All we know the weight upgrade upon which the Netherlands Police aircraft rely [8 airframes on order] is still not getting there [yet]. I suspect it is again the lack of money that means there are insufficient tech resources. It can be done - the 135 and 109S prove that - but EC and AW have money and people.
Salvation for MDs money worries may lie in the US Army Little Bird contract... but that is 2007.... lots of days till then.
On the earlier comment about Phoenix buying AW rather than MD ... it is not that they have to buy its just that political pressure would tend to require a 'home' buy .... There is probaly a link between MD being local and the fact that the largest MD920N fleet in law enforcement is in Arizona....
The fact that this political pressure did not happen this time may well be technical ......... but is it?
Enough?
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Where do MD go from here? They have filed for Section 11 (Or whatever it's called) saying they have no money, so now the creditors can't file bankruptcy on them, but what now?
There were rumours of Boeing coming back in and sorting it all out, but it's gone a bit quiet on that too.
They don't really have the spares for the 600 and 900, and it is a case of hurry up and wait for them when you do get a response.
The guys at the factory must be worried about their job security surely, but it won't all just disappear, will it???
There were rumours of Boeing coming back in and sorting it all out, but it's gone a bit quiet on that too.
They don't really have the spares for the 600 and 900, and it is a case of hurry up and wait for them when you do get a response.
The guys at the factory must be worried about their job security surely, but it won't all just disappear, will it???
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Another issue affecting them is that as they have not supported the 369HS and D/E with spares so you can buy just about anything for these ships aftermarket and most people do!
There is also evidently a gap in the production numbers for the 900 that don't actually exist and it is quite a large number.
There is also evidently a gap in the production numbers for the 900 that don't actually exist and it is quite a large number.