What's happening at MD Helicopters?

[SilsoeSid]

Was going to carry it on, but it seems the answers have been given;

PANews doesn't like MD, he wants everyone to have 145s which are too big, for police ops, IMVHO.

No other companies have spares problems and technical problems are very rare.

Now the best of all, lets start a rumour about this mysterious Sect 11. No doubt something exteremely vague, posted in the hope that it will change a few purchasing minds out there. Even better when we can add in the b word and the old job security little gem!

Open industrial espionage as its most transparent.

[Notar fan]

PANews doesn't like MD, he wants everyone to have 145s which are too big, for police ops, IMVHO.

Thank you SilsoeSid. I was beginning to think that I was being paronoid. PANews wants the whole world to be driving EC's, no matter what model.

Chapter 11 is just a rumour....for now

I think the City of Phoenix deal was more a vote against MD, than for Agusta. I wonder if they realise that they will be grounded most of the summer when the temps hit 110F most days. Kind of negates the fact the bought the aircraft for some use as a fire fighting tool, when you can't fly much during fire season.

[ppheli]

Kaman have just released their quarterly numbers, and as usual (well, for at least the last 4 quarters), they have been forced by accounting standards, or their CPAs, or both, to make a statement on their MD contract. Note the last sentence in bold

--snip--
Helicopter subcontract work involves commercial and military helicopter programs. Commercial programs include multi-year contracts for production of fuselages for the MD Helicopters, Inc. (MDHI) 500 and 600 series helicopters and composite rotor blades for the MD Explorer helicopter. Total orders from MDHI have run at significantly lower rates than originally anticipated due to lower than expected demand. The company's investment in these contracts consists principally of $4.2 million in billed receivables and $16.2 million in recoverable costs-not billed, including start-up costs and other program expenditures, as of June 30, 2004. To date in 2004, the company has received only nominal payments. The recoverability of unbilled costs will depend to a significant extent upon MDHI's future requirements through 2013, the year to which both contracts extend. The company stopped production on these contracts in the second quarter of 2003, but continues to work closely with the customer to resolve overall payment issues and establish conditions under which production could be resumed, including the timing thereof. Management believes that some progress has been made in this regard. Based upon MDHI's projected future requirements and inventory on hand at both MDHI and the company, resumption of production would not be expected to occur until late in 2004 at the earliest. Although the outcome is not certain, the company understands from MDHI management that it is close to executing its strategy to improve current financial and operational circumstances.
--snip--

[PANews]

________________________________
Was going to carry it on, but it seems the answers have been given;

PANews doesn't like MD, he wants everyone to have 145s which are too big, for police ops, IMVHO.

No other companies have spares problems and technical problems are very rare.

Now the best of all, lets start a rumour about this mysterious Sect 11. No doubt something exteremely vague, posted in the hope that it will change a few purchasing minds out there. Even better when we can add in the b word and the old job security little gem!

Open industrial espionage as its most transparent.
_______________________________

Well I am surprised that that little tirade did not arrive before!

'PANews doen't like MD....' is the usual kick I get from employees of the PAS/MD/RDM team* .... but it actually defies the truth. So we all think we know who I work for .... who pays your wages Silsoe? Can we see the Wood' in the PAS trees?

So tell me which detail of the material I posted here was incorrect [and why] and I might take a little more notice.

As for me 'selling' the 145/BK117C2 I thought that there was some criticism in there too .... Are you blind to what you do not wish to see? The 145 is big but someone appears to see them as an option. Perhaps you think that they are all going to Oxford because they read my PANews.......... thanks for the pat on the back but I think you are bonkers!

It is not my decision what units may look at let alone buy .... in theory there is no market for the 145 in the Uk but plenty of operators are looking at it. Some of them currently fly the same aircraft you fly. Do you have a vested interest perhaps?

Well come on then tell us that there is no problem with the MD product or its support .... we all want to hear that from an expert. I have already stated that in my opinion the problems are not the problems but the lack of MD cashflow to throw at the problems.

Section 11? No its called Chapter 11..... and it is a protective measure for US based companies in trouble and ... as yet ... I have seen nothing to make me believe it. If MD were going that way they would have filed it months ago Mark.

Are you attacking John Bicker as well? Maybe he is biased? He says there are spares problems with 500s..... what do you know about 500 spares?

Maybe 'Notar Fan' will join in, he was looking in earlier.... but he fits the team* bill so I may be in for a two cornered attack any time now......

Good night, fly safe.

[SilsoeSid]

PANews,

Thanks for eventually saying it was just your opinion, for a moment there I thought this was authoritative information on this thread.

"The 145 is big but someone appears to see them as an option."

I think that you'll find that this is probably not for police work and the "plenty of people looking at it" have been invited down on a freebie! Haven't you?

Also, to buy such a large aircraft for the few/rare occasions that it may be needed to carry your 6 man firearms team must be asking for closer scrutiny.

Earlier, the EH101 was mentioned, in PANews's scenario this would be the size of aircraft needed to carry 6 armed officers with associated armoury, ladders, hydraulic rigs, ropes, spotting equipment, radios and their lunch bags!
(Jeez, it was bad enough trying to carry a section of 6 in light order with a Lynx, even in winter.)

During a normal set of duties, I'm sure few of us would like to upset the decent law abiding population, by looking for a person in a back garden in the early hours of the morning with a craft as big as this, for the sake of a thermal camera, just incase firearms need moving about.
As for an urban pursuit.......have a laugh.

Despite your claim, I am no expert, but as a user, I personally have no problem with the product. (I hope that's clear.)

Hope you slept well,
Take care.

[Eurobolkow]

In the thread on the new 109S, PA News does pay the 900 the compliment of saying that it has the best cabin height of the types currently in use by the Police Authorities.

However it is clear from some high profile AOG situations last year that there is a support issue (or at the very least a percieved issue) with the 900 which is causing problems. Would anyone care to enlighten us?

Maybe I need to start a new thread to ask this question but does anyone know the vitals on the 145? How is it different to the 117 or is it just the usual Eurocopter clever rebranding??

[SilsoeSid]

Just a quick google search took me here http://www.eurocopter.com/ec145/index.html

Is this what PANews had in mind for the UK Police units?

Quote: "Police missions and law enforcement tasks."



This sort of stuff is very rarely done in the military, and even then with a lot of planning/briefings and qualified despatchers/despatchees to keep current.
So to justify all this malarky is going to take a lot more spin from PAN than we've already had.

Quote; "View of the cabin, equipped with 2 x 3 troop seats."

Unfortunately, no stroking seats



Now the EMS is a different kettle of fish.

ppheli;

Should we ask why every UK police operator of the 900 (bar one) is currently showing at least some interest in the EC145?

(note: UK POLICE operator)

I challenge you to name them, or at least the one who isn't, because I don't believe you in the way you have written it.

(As I have said earlier, you have probably based this statement on the fact that the freebie invites are going around for UK police operators to see the 145.)

[Thomas coupling]

In light of the subject thread (MD teetering?)(excuse the pun)- the UK police are about to see the next replacement programme ignite as the 'old' (135/902) units look to purchase new helos.
The whisperings about MD, at the very least, must have an impact on decision makers, especially if those people (UEO's) can influence the procurement panel / authority. These are 'relative' lay persons who might, just might, be swayed by gossip/innuendo/rumour. This could lead them up a blind alley if they are not careful.
I hope for everyones sake, MD weather this current storm to emerge fresh and competitive, as the last thing we need is to find that there is NO competition - where would that get us???

The Home Office might decide for us anyway and we could all end up buying/leasing from a fleet of 45 Bell lights!!!!!!

It is up to the end users to make sure they are properly informed so that the next generation helo is suitable for the job and not for the politicians

Good luck to MD.................................

[HeliEng]

PANews,

I knew someone would have to pick holes! Thanks!!!

diethelm,

It must have been about a month ago we were told that they had, and as far as we are concerned, it came from official sources.

[PANews]

Hmph!

So what we are saying is that I cannot report news items sent to me and that I cannot assess the material [because MD say so].

Manufacturers other than MD cannot entertain potential purchasers, show them the product and fly them in it?

That as a member of the dreaded press I cannot be shown and flown by EC or AW but I can by MD [only if I like the product]?

... and then of course if I do say nice things about MD products and nasty things about EC products that is also not acceptable...

Well, that's a toughie!

I had better sleep on that again!

[Rich Lee]

Only the management really knows the true situation at MD Helicopters and they have, understandably, circled the wagons. There has been no reliable information coming out of the company for several months - just promises and optimistic forecasts.

The latest rumors are that they are in trouble with the FAA for some serious violations of regulation and they are having touble with a bridge loan. Haven't heard about a bankruptcy and although there has been a number of people leave the company, I have not heard of wholesale lay-offs.

Diethelm is probably the most reliable source outside of the company of what is occuring within MDHI.

[cyclicfriction]

Rich Lee,
A lot of the more recent information leaks across to MD from your side of the tracks...can't believe you don't know more that you say.

As Diethelm says, rumours of the bankruptcy are just that. There a lot of people out there that would love to see the demise of MD, just because of a few management individuals. Lets hope the product survives them. The last few years are a testiment to the product. MD would be long gone if they were manufacturing something else. The product will prevail, of that there is no doubt. The days of "promises and optimistic forecasts" are at their twilight hour. New finance will bring accountability and oversight.

The rumour of "trouble with the FAA" seems also unfounded. The "surprise" audits seems to have yeilded nothing unusual, probably to the annoyance of those that initiated it.

[Rich Lee]

cyclicfriction

A lot of the more recent information leaks across to MD from your side of the tracks

If the direction of the information flow is from Boeing to MD Helicopters, something is very, very wrong.

[PANews]

If we are entering the realms of rumour wholesale, it is said that Bell retain an interest in the MD carcass. You may recall that they were an original bidder for the company when Boeing were divesting themselves but were told they could not 'play.'

Whether they would really still have an interest after all this time I really do not know - and as the two MD posters say I cannot write specifically about their product I will speculate no further!

_____________________
Only the management really knows the true situation at MD Helicopters and they have, understandably, circled the wagons.
_____________________

Oh, you mean Notar Fan then?

[HeliMark]

One problem they have is in sales. Ask them to demo a full touchdown auto (600). They will refuse. EC puts a big smile on, and asks if you want to do it at max gross (350).

MD has to do something as their police market base is going away in a hurry.

[Hover Bovver]

Helimark,

They did when we asked !

The thing that everyone misses is that the MD600 is not suited to the sort of work the police/border patrol wanted to do ie. slow flight and out of trim,however it is a super smooth machine and loves flying fast- sub 20 knots it doesnt!

[metric]

EC145 SEATING SPACE

Having crawled around an Ec145 with a tape measure and an SF guy, I have little doubt that even with the regular crash-worthy seats you can transport armed troops. The question is what do you want to do? The French SF guys are happy to use the EC145 and abseil and rapid rope from theirs. If you want to winch .... no issues...port or starboard so the choice is yours. I'm a BK117C1 fan and the C2 simply makes a great ship better....and what a view!

METRIC

[Rich Lee]

HeliMark

Ask them to demo a full touchdown auto (600). They will refuse.

I believe that this has less to do with the aircraft than some internal MD Helicopters policy. The aircraft is fully capable of doing touchdown autorotations at gross weight. I myself have performed hundreds at all weights in test, training and demonstration. I don't know all of the pilots who work for MD, but the ones I do know can demonstrate touchdown autorotations at any weight. As an interesting note, at one time Eurocopter would refuse to demonstrate touchdown autorotations.
I understand your reasoning. Bell once made a policy decision to refuse to demonstrate touchdown autorotations in Mexico City. I amazed customers in Mexico City by allowing the customers themselves to perform gross weight touchdown autorotations. Bell had refused to demonstrate at that altitude even though the aircraft and pilots could most certainly do it. The customers had come to the false conclusion that policy was equivalent to performance. The outcome was McDonnell Douglas made the sale. Perhaps MD Helicopters should reconsider their policy to meet the marketing strategy of Eurocopter.
I agree with Hover Bovver that the MD600N is a pocket rocket. In the hands of a good pilot it is an amazingly flexible aircraft with sports car like performance.

[md 600 driver]

i went to md in march after hai and spent hours doing full touch down autos
every time ive been there ive done full touch down autos
ive even done full touch down autos with rich lee

all in a 600 also done them in a 500 and 520

steve atherton

[HeliMark]

Rich, I would agree that it most likely is an internal policy on not doing the full touchdown auto's at that time at least. And you are right MD needs to seriously look at their demo policy if they want to get back into selling more machines.

Having flown the 600, I would never want to race aginst it with another helicopter. No question that the 600 would leave the other helicopter behind.