Shortage of quality pilots in the UK?
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Quality Pilots
There seems to be a lack of quality pilots in the UK at this time.
Companies are having problems getting pilots to fill the short notice slots.
An availabilty list on pprune might give some of those sitting on the fence a chance to get a bit of extra flying.
i.e. Name, Types on licence, Flying Hours, Location & Dates available. To update monthly that way the records are kept upto date.
Just a thought!
Companies are having problems getting pilots to fill the short notice slots.
An availabilty list on pprune might give some of those sitting on the fence a chance to get a bit of extra flying.
i.e. Name, Types on licence, Flying Hours, Location & Dates available. To update monthly that way the records are kept upto date.
Just a thought!
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If you know of any jobs going - salaried or 'one-off' - post details.
eg I've heard at least one operator is looking for an experienced A109 pilot for Silverstone.
If you know anything, let us know.
Heliport
eg I've heard at least one operator is looking for an experienced A109 pilot for Silverstone.
If you know anything, let us know.
Heliport
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A shortage of quality pilots........well there are/were plenty. But when you've got an industry that treats its skillsbase with such contempt there has to come a day when that base becomes eroded.
And the change in training from PPL/Instructor/Commercial to PPL/Commercial combined with the continuing lack of a dedicated JAR CPL(H) syllabus hasn't helped.
The UK CPL/ATPL pilot database can only shrink for the forseeable future.
And that's why bricklayers at T5 are getting £60,000 a year.......market forces should push up pilot rates.
And the change in training from PPL/Instructor/Commercial to PPL/Commercial combined with the continuing lack of a dedicated JAR CPL(H) syllabus hasn't helped.
The UK CPL/ATPL pilot database can only shrink for the forseeable future.
And that's why bricklayers at T5 are getting £60,000 a year.......market forces should push up pilot rates.
Headsethair
Just a slightly wine induced thought, but is the reason a bricklayer can earn £60,000 because he can demonstrate the ability to lay twice as many bricks as a £30,000 bricky?
Sadly our employers just need someone to fill a seat - they won't know whether they got a good deal until we have worked for a few years without screwing up!!!!
TeeS
Just a slightly wine induced thought, but is the reason a bricklayer can earn £60,000 because he can demonstrate the ability to lay twice as many bricks as a £30,000 bricky?
Sadly our employers just need someone to fill a seat - they won't know whether they got a good deal until we have worked for a few years without screwing up!!!!
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Hic! "Just a slightly wine induced thought, but is the reason a bricklayer can earn £60,000 because he can demonstrate the ability to lay twice as many bricks as a £30,000 bricky? "
No. It's because of the shortage of skilled bricklayers. Next time you go past the T5 site take a look at the town of caravans that has sprung up near the M25- the place is a magnet for anyone with a building skill.
No. It's because of the shortage of skilled bricklayers. Next time you go past the T5 site take a look at the town of caravans that has sprung up near the M25- the place is a magnet for anyone with a building skill.
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I suspect most of us would agree tradesmen earn and charge ludicrous amounts of money but before we get on to plumbers, whose extortionate charges are enough to make anyone's blood boil, can we get back to the interesting issue raised by greenarrow.
Is there a shortage of experienced helicopter pilots in the UK?
If yes ..... why do you think that is?
Have the changes in training regulations made it prohibitively expensive for many people to become professional helicopter pilots?
Is there a shortage generally? Or only when there's exceptional demand for helicopters for big events? eg Royal Ascot, Grand Prix weekend at Silverstone, Cowes Week etc?
Does the CAA's approach to aviation generally and helicopter ops in particuar help the industry grow? Or hinder growth? Or does it make no difference?
Heliport
Is there a shortage of experienced helicopter pilots in the UK?
If yes ..... why do you think that is?
Have the changes in training regulations made it prohibitively expensive for many people to become professional helicopter pilots?
Is there a shortage generally? Or only when there's exceptional demand for helicopters for big events? eg Royal Ascot, Grand Prix weekend at Silverstone, Cowes Week etc?
Does the CAA's approach to aviation generally and helicopter ops in particuar help the industry grow? Or hinder growth? Or does it make no difference?
Heliport
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Right. A few observations.
There is no doubt that the change in training requirements has caused not only a drop-off in potential pilots, but a sluggish processing of existing pilots. I come across many really good PPLs who would make very able CPLs - but they simply cannot afford the time and money to finish their training. At least the "old" method allowed someone to make a bit of a crust as they progressed through the instructor stage. Now, there's no way of making money legally - you have to be funded all the way through the very expensive CPL or ATPL courses. (Apologies if a lot of this is obvious to rotorheads - but we have a lot of browsers who want to make careers in aviation. They don't always know the problems.)
So - the alternative is to use taxpayer money and join the services. But this isn't necessarily the way to find good CPLs and ATPLs. The type of flier who makes a good civilian pilot isn't necessarily a military-trained one. I was intrigued to read 2 seperate comments about mil pilots in the HCGB mag today.
Dick Sanford had to go and check-out some multi-thousand hour Russian pilots who were to become R22 instructors. These guys had never, never flown a light heli. In the words of Dick, they were so shocked that the flying was "interesting".
In the same mag was a comment from a London ATC. He stated that the pilots who caused most of the problems on the heli routes were military - they find it difficult to comply with the tight requirements. And yet I know PPLs who handle the intricacies of these routes with aplomb and fine accuracy.
We need to take a hard look at UK training - it isn't producing a flood of pilots and of the students I meet who are trying to make headway say they cannot understand why the industry regulators make it so terribly tough for fliers to get through.
It's unbelievable how little the authorities seem to care about the constipation they have caused - and for no reason.
The civilian helicopter industry in the UK is in severe danger of drowning in useless paper, pointless regs, elongated expensive training. We need some CAA initiatives - not more roadblocks.
There is no doubt that the change in training requirements has caused not only a drop-off in potential pilots, but a sluggish processing of existing pilots. I come across many really good PPLs who would make very able CPLs - but they simply cannot afford the time and money to finish their training. At least the "old" method allowed someone to make a bit of a crust as they progressed through the instructor stage. Now, there's no way of making money legally - you have to be funded all the way through the very expensive CPL or ATPL courses. (Apologies if a lot of this is obvious to rotorheads - but we have a lot of browsers who want to make careers in aviation. They don't always know the problems.)
So - the alternative is to use taxpayer money and join the services. But this isn't necessarily the way to find good CPLs and ATPLs. The type of flier who makes a good civilian pilot isn't necessarily a military-trained one. I was intrigued to read 2 seperate comments about mil pilots in the HCGB mag today.
Dick Sanford had to go and check-out some multi-thousand hour Russian pilots who were to become R22 instructors. These guys had never, never flown a light heli. In the words of Dick, they were so shocked that the flying was "interesting".
In the same mag was a comment from a London ATC. He stated that the pilots who caused most of the problems on the heli routes were military - they find it difficult to comply with the tight requirements. And yet I know PPLs who handle the intricacies of these routes with aplomb and fine accuracy.
We need to take a hard look at UK training - it isn't producing a flood of pilots and of the students I meet who are trying to make headway say they cannot understand why the industry regulators make it so terribly tough for fliers to get through.
It's unbelievable how little the authorities seem to care about the constipation they have caused - and for no reason.
The civilian helicopter industry in the UK is in severe danger of drowning in useless paper, pointless regs, elongated expensive training. We need some CAA initiatives - not more roadblocks.
To all and sundry, felicitations,
There's one pilot out here who's certainly experienced, 14,600 hrs., numerous types(9) with ALTP/H + I/R multi-turbine and no longer flying. Why not, because he's over 60, shame but elsewhere in the universe i.e.FAA he could continue without restriction i.e. he doesn't have to be in a two-crew situation. Why is this situation only applicable to UK/EU and not elsewhere?, I don't see any increase in the accident rate due pilot incapacitation elsewhere in the world. Could it be that our regulators are behind the demographic curve or is it the influence of airline pilot unions i.e."Fat Albert Jockeys with 30yrs. in the RHS/LHS & a million pound pension pot to play with"? Or could it be the influence of the insurance industry actuaries that ultimately decide these restrictive trade/human rights discrimination policies? Answers on a postcard please to SAGS suite, Reid Towers, Weddick Way, Lagos.
There's one pilot out here who's certainly experienced, 14,600 hrs., numerous types(9) with ALTP/H + I/R multi-turbine and no longer flying. Why not, because he's over 60, shame but elsewhere in the universe i.e.FAA he could continue without restriction i.e. he doesn't have to be in a two-crew situation. Why is this situation only applicable to UK/EU and not elsewhere?, I don't see any increase in the accident rate due pilot incapacitation elsewhere in the world. Could it be that our regulators are behind the demographic curve or is it the influence of airline pilot unions i.e."Fat Albert Jockeys with 30yrs. in the RHS/LHS & a million pound pension pot to play with"? Or could it be the influence of the insurance industry actuaries that ultimately decide these restrictive trade/human rights discrimination policies? Answers on a postcard please to SAGS suite, Reid Towers, Weddick Way, Lagos.
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if there are so many unfilled vacancies out there in the uk, why dont these companies try advertising.
as they do only occasionally, i can only assume that these positions dont really exist.
i would like to know on what evidence greenarrow bases his statement.
my own anecdotal evidence does not support this theory at all.
maybe it is time for helicopter companies to behave like a normal company, and do things like recruit normally rather than ask their old mate and be told unnofically that this bloke is a "good egg" or a "bit of an arse" and while they are at it why not get applicants to fill in application forms (I know i never have) unusual in the helicopter world i know, but quite popular in the normal world !
as they do only occasionally, i can only assume that these positions dont really exist.
i would like to know on what evidence greenarrow bases his statement.
my own anecdotal evidence does not support this theory at all.
maybe it is time for helicopter companies to behave like a normal company, and do things like recruit normally rather than ask their old mate and be told unnofically that this bloke is a "good egg" or a "bit of an arse" and while they are at it why not get applicants to fill in application forms (I know i never have) unusual in the helicopter world i know, but quite popular in the normal world !
Hedsethair states:
"At least the "old" method allowed someone to make a bit of a crust as they progressed through the instructor stage."
"The type of flier who makes a good civilian pilot isn't necessarily a military-trained one."
By implication, in Hedsethair's world, it would appear that what one really needs to become a quality pilot is to fly an R22/H269 around the circuit a few hundred times and fly a few of 50nm navexs!
Obviously several years and a few thousand hours at low level, in crap weather, with even crappier nav kit, a flypro that changes by the minute, a hostile threat, a wingman (or 2 or 3) and 2 radios to operate (using 2 seperate voice procedures) makes the average ex-mil pilot entirely under-qualified to fly the heli-lanes or have a CPL.
If I were looking to recruit a quality pilot, I know where I'd turn. However, if I were just looking to fill a seat and get someone to do as they're told and not too readily say no when expected to bend the rules a bit, well I know where I'd turn for that too.
I don't really want to start a military/civil debate here but the inference contained in headsethair's post just pi$$es me off.
J
"At least the "old" method allowed someone to make a bit of a crust as they progressed through the instructor stage."
"The type of flier who makes a good civilian pilot isn't necessarily a military-trained one."
By implication, in Hedsethair's world, it would appear that what one really needs to become a quality pilot is to fly an R22/H269 around the circuit a few hundred times and fly a few of 50nm navexs!
Obviously several years and a few thousand hours at low level, in crap weather, with even crappier nav kit, a flypro that changes by the minute, a hostile threat, a wingman (or 2 or 3) and 2 radios to operate (using 2 seperate voice procedures) makes the average ex-mil pilot entirely under-qualified to fly the heli-lanes or have a CPL.
If I were looking to recruit a quality pilot, I know where I'd turn. However, if I were just looking to fill a seat and get someone to do as they're told and not too readily say no when expected to bend the rules a bit, well I know where I'd turn for that too.
I don't really want to start a military/civil debate here but the inference contained in headsethair's post just pi$$es me off.
J
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"By implication, in Hedsethair's world, it would appear that what one really needs to become a quality pilot is to fly an R22/H269 around the circuit a few hundred times and fly a few of 50nm navexs"
If the world was run by implication, we'd be in an even bigger mess than we are. None of the above is a correct reflection or understanding of my post. (BTW - you've chosen to ignore an important word I used : "necessarily")
But I don't see why we should accept a situation where the taxpayer is the only solid source of funding for helicopter pilot training. It's crazy - and just a little bit unfair on the taxpayer who funds the training, the mishaps and the thousands of hours. And then sees this all used for, ultimately, private gain.
However, that's not the subject of this debate. But it will be if we keep our blinkers on.
If the world was run by implication, we'd be in an even bigger mess than we are. None of the above is a correct reflection or understanding of my post. (BTW - you've chosen to ignore an important word I used : "necessarily")
But I don't see why we should accept a situation where the taxpayer is the only solid source of funding for helicopter pilot training. It's crazy - and just a little bit unfair on the taxpayer who funds the training, the mishaps and the thousands of hours. And then sees this all used for, ultimately, private gain.
However, that's not the subject of this debate. But it will be if we keep our blinkers on.
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Come on headsethair. 
Any importance which might otherwise have been attached to "necessarily" was lost in those anecdotes you quoted.
I happen to agree with you it's a great shame the instructor route to a CPL has been taken away, but you might be on weaker ground if you invite comparison between the flying/experience of military pilots and civvy FI's.
In your later post, you say "I don't see why we should accept a situation where the taxpayer is the only solid source of funding for helicopter pilot training". Fair point, but then you add comments about 'unfairness to the taxpayer' and 'ultimately, private gain.'
If you don't want a mil v civil debate, it's better to avoid comments which are likely to provoke one.
Any importance which might otherwise have been attached to "necessarily" was lost in those anecdotes you quoted. I happen to agree with you it's a great shame the instructor route to a CPL has been taken away, but you might be on weaker ground if you invite comparison between the flying/experience of military pilots and civvy FI's.
In your later post, you say "I don't see why we should accept a situation where the taxpayer is the only solid source of funding for helicopter pilot training". Fair point, but then you add comments about 'unfairness to the taxpayer' and 'ultimately, private gain.'
If you don't want a mil v civil debate, it's better to avoid comments which are likely to provoke one.
There are no limits
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Perhaps greenarrow with the vast resources available to him might like to start an Aviation Academy and sponsor a few promising pilots through the necessary qualifications. Certainly the supply of mil pilots is drying up (and they are not necessarily the best anyway) and the self improver route is now closed.
Take a leaf out of the Airlines book and train your own.
Take a leaf out of the Airlines book and train your own.
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Lots of talk about poor wages I see, seems to me that a shortage of experienced pilots is exactly what you would want to see.
I cant think of a better way to motivate employers to pay higher wages than to be in a bidding war with other companies to retain the expertise of experienced drivers. After all, it's all dictated by supply and demand, free market society and all.....(unless a Union creates a false pay rate, that is not a reflection of the supply)
Can anyone give me a brief overview of the process in the U.K. most guys go through to get to a level where they are considered "hireable" for a decent wage? I was born in the U.K., curious about how it compares with Canada..
I cant think of a better way to motivate employers to pay higher wages than to be in a bidding war with other companies to retain the expertise of experienced drivers. After all, it's all dictated by supply and demand, free market society and all.....(unless a Union creates a false pay rate, that is not a reflection of the supply)
Can anyone give me a brief overview of the process in the U.K. most guys go through to get to a level where they are considered "hireable" for a decent wage? I was born in the U.K., curious about how it compares with Canada..
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"If you don't want a mil v civil debate, it's better to avoid comments which are likely to provoke one. "
Heliport - thanks for that. I'm so glad I took the time to post a reply to your question. Shall I go to the quad for 30 minutes ?
I left school 30 years ago - but I've just had a terrible flashback.
Heliport - thanks for that. I'm so glad I took the time to post a reply to your question. Shall I go to the quad for 30 minutes ?
I left school 30 years ago - but I've just had a terrible flashback.
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Whilst not wishing to annoy all the hard working instructors out there I do have one small point to make.
I have over 1000hrs including some 750 hours instructional time having come through the old system to CPL.
I consider myself to be a good instructor who cares about his students and let my pupils fly the aircraft as much as they can from the outset. Whilst I demonstrate the various exercises and am able to carry them out well my total actual hands on stick time is probably only about 5% of the 750+hours instructional time I have logged. I hope this is the case with any good instructor as really we should be sitting there while the student flies not the other way around (though I do hear of instructors who are always grabbing the controls and assume this is because they do not feel comfortable in the aircraft or their ability to recover from the students mistakes).
Having moved into the world of commercial flying I am aware that once removed from the set paramaters of instructing where you know and control most of the variables of each flight ie. the same old navex route. which fields for forced landings etc. things can soon begin to pile up on the new CPL Pilot.
Customers who change their destination in mid flight, unfamiliar landing sites that in no way match the description given and are marginal on size. Flying out of balance and bordering on vortex so the cameraman can get that shot just right for the director, airspace such as Silverstone with their quick turn round times and multiple radio calls and frequency changes not to mention the good old pressure of your mouth saying yes and your stomach saying no when given a job as you don't want to upset/look bad to the boss. This last one being a real problem for new/young pilots who have just got the first paying job. The list goes on.
In all having gained your hours to CPL through instructing I do believe that there is room for some to expect more from you than you can give. Whilst we have the hours on paper this is slightly misleading. At least with a fresh new 185 hour CPL the company knows (or should do) that you really need to have your hand held and brought along slowly and with plenty of on going training and supervision as you build your experience levels up.
Yes if the donkey stops I am sure that any good in practice instructor will get everyone down in one piece however I can also see him having a CFIT accident in low vis while scud running to try and complete a job he is not happy with so as to keep that valuable first job. Something an ex military boy would probably be less likely to do due to his experience levels as well as maturity to tell the boss to stick it.
I accept there are exceptions to the rule and do not wish to upset anyone here but my point is, being an instructor does not automatically make you a good commercial pilot and so ending this route to CPL does not mean an immediate shortage of "experienced" pilots.
As to being able to earn as you build your way to a CPL I find this hard to follow. Requiring as you do 300hrs on helicopters to becom an FI in the first place you most likely spent a good £30 to £35,000 pounds on PPl and hours building followed by another £6000 or so on an instructor course where as this £42,000 pound or so could go a long way towards a CPL in the first place.
I await to be shot down in flames.
I have over 1000hrs including some 750 hours instructional time having come through the old system to CPL.
I consider myself to be a good instructor who cares about his students and let my pupils fly the aircraft as much as they can from the outset. Whilst I demonstrate the various exercises and am able to carry them out well my total actual hands on stick time is probably only about 5% of the 750+hours instructional time I have logged. I hope this is the case with any good instructor as really we should be sitting there while the student flies not the other way around (though I do hear of instructors who are always grabbing the controls and assume this is because they do not feel comfortable in the aircraft or their ability to recover from the students mistakes).
Having moved into the world of commercial flying I am aware that once removed from the set paramaters of instructing where you know and control most of the variables of each flight ie. the same old navex route. which fields for forced landings etc. things can soon begin to pile up on the new CPL Pilot.
Customers who change their destination in mid flight, unfamiliar landing sites that in no way match the description given and are marginal on size. Flying out of balance and bordering on vortex so the cameraman can get that shot just right for the director, airspace such as Silverstone with their quick turn round times and multiple radio calls and frequency changes not to mention the good old pressure of your mouth saying yes and your stomach saying no when given a job as you don't want to upset/look bad to the boss. This last one being a real problem for new/young pilots who have just got the first paying job. The list goes on.
In all having gained your hours to CPL through instructing I do believe that there is room for some to expect more from you than you can give. Whilst we have the hours on paper this is slightly misleading. At least with a fresh new 185 hour CPL the company knows (or should do) that you really need to have your hand held and brought along slowly and with plenty of on going training and supervision as you build your experience levels up.
Yes if the donkey stops I am sure that any good in practice instructor will get everyone down in one piece however I can also see him having a CFIT accident in low vis while scud running to try and complete a job he is not happy with so as to keep that valuable first job. Something an ex military boy would probably be less likely to do due to his experience levels as well as maturity to tell the boss to stick it.
I accept there are exceptions to the rule and do not wish to upset anyone here but my point is, being an instructor does not automatically make you a good commercial pilot and so ending this route to CPL does not mean an immediate shortage of "experienced" pilots.
As to being able to earn as you build your way to a CPL I find this hard to follow. Requiring as you do 300hrs on helicopters to becom an FI in the first place you most likely spent a good £30 to £35,000 pounds on PPl and hours building followed by another £6000 or so on an instructor course where as this £42,000 pound or so could go a long way towards a CPL in the first place.
I await to be shot down in flames.
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It would appear to be similar to canada - plenty of pilots, but some "consultants" are advising companies that they need 2000-hour pilots for the most elementary tasks, and they get badly treated when they do get them. At least two people I know have retired because they can't stand the customers.
I'm booked for Silverstone, but am otherwise available - 206/350/355/500, ATP heli and fixed wing, 7500 hrs no accidents.
Also approved CRMI with own single-pilot heli course....
Phil
I'm booked for Silverstone, but am otherwise available - 206/350/355/500, ATP heli and fixed wing, 7500 hrs no accidents.
Also approved CRMI with own single-pilot heli course....
Phil
