It made me really sad...
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It made me really sad...
Yesterday I saw the RHC saftey awarness video and F.R. showed a home video recording from 1992 were a man is walking around filmning various things when suddenly a R22M with floats flies above him.
After a while you could actually see the R22M fall out of the sky like stone. This was in Royton, Oldham, Lancs I think.
Moments later the man who filmed this was at the point of impact and filmed the pilot and his wife in the cockpit, slightly smashed by the impact. The pilot was resting on his wife - both of course dead beyond any doubt.
This home video really ruined my sleep tonight and today at work I just can't rid of the image of the dead couple.
Indeed very tragic. It reminded me of an similar accident, also with a R22M with floats which happend December 1987 in Sweden. This was due to a sprint in the engines crank shaft making the engine to stop in-flight and the instructor and student fell out of the sky, up-side down. The rotors had stopped turning well before impact.
The investigation pointed at the fact the entering autorotation with floats was much moore difficult than without. Anyone had any experience of that?
Even though this was several years ago, it is really sobering to think of this.
/Simon
After a while you could actually see the R22M fall out of the sky like stone. This was in Royton, Oldham, Lancs I think.
Moments later the man who filmed this was at the point of impact and filmed the pilot and his wife in the cockpit, slightly smashed by the impact. The pilot was resting on his wife - both of course dead beyond any doubt.
This home video really ruined my sleep tonight and today at work I just can't rid of the image of the dead couple.
Indeed very tragic. It reminded me of an similar accident, also with a R22M with floats which happend December 1987 in Sweden. This was due to a sprint in the engines crank shaft making the engine to stop in-flight and the instructor and student fell out of the sky, up-side down. The rotors had stopped turning well before impact.
The investigation pointed at the fact the entering autorotation with floats was much moore difficult than without. Anyone had any experience of that?
Even though this was several years ago, it is really sobering to think of this.
/Simon
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It is one thing to see a crash and know that that there were no survivors but another thing all together to see the victims. I am not sure what extra benefit Robinson think they achieve by showing this footage.
It is sobering, as is a trip to the AAIB in Farnborough. There were some horrific wreckages there but also interesting to see some where we were told the occupants survived.
Whirlygig
It is sobering, as is a trip to the AAIB in Farnborough. There were some horrific wreckages there but also interesting to see some where we were told the occupants survived.
Whirlygig
"Just a pilot"
As to floats vs. skid autos, my limited comparison is the Jet Ranger, and I don't remember any significant difference, one gear to the other.
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I too felt rather uncomfortable and awkard watching that clip, even after 7 years as a paramedic the first time I saw it and now after nearly 15 years as a paramedic I still find it very unpleasant, despite having seen much worse at work.
I believe that this guy was actually the victim of carb icing and then rotor stall so the autorotation characteristics are of little important this this accident.
With regards to Robinson's reasons for showing it - who knows? Perhaps it takes something like that to make people REALLY understand the risks of not 'flying the machine' all the time. Maybe because it would have been difficult to edit and still maintain the continuity of the wreckage footage.
PW
I believe that this guy was actually the victim of carb icing and then rotor stall so the autorotation characteristics are of little important this this accident.
With regards to Robinson's reasons for showing it - who knows? Perhaps it takes something like that to make people REALLY understand the risks of not 'flying the machine' all the time. Maybe because it would have been difficult to edit and still maintain the continuity of the wreckage footage.
PW
Pilotwolf,
"I believe that this guy was actually the victim of carb icing and then rotor stall so the autorotation characteristics are of little important this this accident."
Not knowing more than you have said, I stand to be corrected, but surely this is precisley the point about the autorotational chracteristics that FR would be trying to make? Engine stops due to carb icing resulting in rapid Nr decay, ergo; get the lever down very quickly or it will decay to an irecoverable state.
I agree with flungdung for the reasoning behind including such a clip; theory and white board stuff is great but it will never get the message home in such a long lasting way as hard evidence.
"I believe that this guy was actually the victim of carb icing and then rotor stall so the autorotation characteristics are of little important this this accident."
Not knowing more than you have said, I stand to be corrected, but surely this is precisley the point about the autorotational chracteristics that FR would be trying to make? Engine stops due to carb icing resulting in rapid Nr decay, ergo; get the lever down very quickly or it will decay to an irecoverable state.
I agree with flungdung for the reasoning behind including such a clip; theory and white board stuff is great but it will never get the message home in such a long lasting way as hard evidence.
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Sure flungdun,
but still, until today this was by far the most awful thing I´ve seen. It have really got to me, maybe cos it is so easy to identify oneself with the pilot.
And the shooting from the wreck, were one saw the bodys, and their position - this was just to much for me. Man - I almost started crying - I felt so damn sorry for them.
And I am not usually the one who sobs easily.
but still, until today this was by far the most awful thing I´ve seen. It have really got to me, maybe cos it is so easy to identify oneself with the pilot.
And the shooting from the wreck, were one saw the bodys, and their position - this was just to much for me. Man - I almost started crying - I felt so damn sorry for them.
And I am not usually the one who sobs easily.
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Perhaps it takes something like that to make people REALLY understand the risks
How often when you read the News Papers do you read about Car Crashes and other road accidents? You read it, and acknowledge it, but it doesn't really sink in. It doesn't change the way you drive or affect the way you think about driving. Then someone you know well dies in a Car crash, or like my father was the first person to come across a fatal accident and tried to give the victim who was clinging to life CPR, and died in his arms. Suddenly that small column in the Newspaper and those names and ages become very real. After the funeral, its at the forefront in your mind for weeks. You drive slower, take less risks, every time you see someone driving dangerously you think about the last time you saw the person you knew, they're funeral and where they would be now "if".
I think thats probably what Robinson wants to keep in peoples mind. It has been unpleasant for you, but perhaps it has done what it has meant to do and some benefit might have come from those peoples death?
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I can understand that you did not want to fly for a while. When I saw that video, I almost wanted to quite flying helos. I started thinking about fixed-wing and changing lane.
Scary stuff!
Scary stuff!
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Although the video is unpleasant it serves as a very good wake up call, particularly to the more 'unruly' aviator. I've used it a couple of times to drive home a point.
I stand to be corrected but I think the footage of the dead occupants was filmed by the emergency services, not by the same guy that filmed the aircraft falling out of the sky.
I stand to be corrected but I think the footage of the dead occupants was filmed by the emergency services, not by the same guy that filmed the aircraft falling out of the sky.
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If the thread has to do with mangled bodies and shcoking photos, I cant help other than add a drawer full . As to the Autorotational differences, I can say from experience of a Jet Ranger with floats and a Huey with exernal tanks that it does change flight characteristics. They do seem to float a bit extending glide. At least providing the external tanks are empty.......
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The video was taken by the fire service.
If you watch it closely you can see the aircraft yawing as though he was opening and closing the throttle which i suspect was during the on set of carb icing.
I've carried out throttle chops in both normal 22's and marina's and did'nt really notice any difference although when flying the marina it was hot and high which helps to maintain rpm
If you watch it closely you can see the aircraft yawing as though he was opening and closing the throttle which i suspect was during the on set of carb icing.
I've carried out throttle chops in both normal 22's and marina's and did'nt really notice any difference although when flying the marina it was hot and high which helps to maintain rpm
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I have also seen this particular footage on at least two different occasions. The first time was soon after I got my ppl and I really did question what the hell I was doing flying helicopters. The second time, they also showed footage of a R22 lifting from a private site after landing to celebrate someones birthday (I think). On departure, the helicopter flew straight into wires and crashed, with fatal consequences. What made it more poignant was the relative (who was filming) dropping the camera screaming. Horrific.
Did make me think about my flying and I hope it made me a better pilot.
Did make me think about my flying and I hope it made me a better pilot.
Re Auto with skids v with floats.
We regularly fly the Squirrel with flot gear in place (but normally not inflated). Eurocopter warn (in very large letters) that inflation of the flot bags will reduce Nr in Autorotation by at least 20 RRPM. May not sound much, but potentially quite critical for the initial recovery, and then again for the subsequent EOL
We regularly fly the Squirrel with flot gear in place (but normally not inflated). Eurocopter warn (in very large letters) that inflation of the flot bags will reduce Nr in Autorotation by at least 20 RRPM. May not sound much, but potentially quite critical for the initial recovery, and then again for the subsequent EOL
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Carby Ice
My two cents,,
In this instance the Pilot did not recognise the early onset of Carby Icing! as the RRPM began to decay the Pilot continued to open the throttle in an attempt to regain RRPM,
the carby icing situation increased till he was at full throttle stop! at this point the RRPM would have been at around 84% !!
The blades stalled! just as the engine stops!
The aircraft then free falls to the ground!
The deceased pilot was a local businesman and was showing his wife the factory he owned from the air!Her first flight with him!
And the application of Carby Heat would have prevented this situation!
It is a Shocking Video and i still picture that Pilot lying in the wreckage dead!
Didnt stop me Flying Helicopters but Jeeezz i think about it most times when i fly,, so i guess it did do some good!
In this instance the Pilot did not recognise the early onset of Carby Icing! as the RRPM began to decay the Pilot continued to open the throttle in an attempt to regain RRPM,
the carby icing situation increased till he was at full throttle stop! at this point the RRPM would have been at around 84% !!
The blades stalled! just as the engine stops!
The aircraft then free falls to the ground!
The deceased pilot was a local businesman and was showing his wife the factory he owned from the air!Her first flight with him!
And the application of Carby Heat would have prevented this situation!
It is a Shocking Video and i still picture that Pilot lying in the wreckage dead!
Didnt stop me Flying Helicopters but Jeeezz i think about it most times when i fly,, so i guess it did do some good!
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212man .. my point was this poor guy hadn't entered autorotation at all/in time so the characteristics other than the time available to lower the lever wasn't relavant to the outcome.
cyclic flare ... thought it was the AAIB who took the video - either way it wasn't the same video as that taken of the ship falling out of the sky.
I too can still see that shot in my mind...
PW
cyclic flare ... thought it was the AAIB who took the video - either way it wasn't the same video as that taken of the ship falling out of the sky.
I too can still see that shot in my mind...
PW
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Every year on New Year's eve, quite a few (mostly young) people would lose eyes, fingers and other body parts due to horseplay with fireworks. Authorities used posters, radio and TV messages to diminish this ever increasing toll with absolutely no effect until one bright spark decided to film and shown on TV, what a face with one eye missing really looks like. Or a mangled stump for a hand. Caused some upset stomachs, but that New Years Eve there were less than half the number of fireworks injuries we'd come to expect. Well done that man. I suspect FR was hoping for much the same effect in showing this video to as wide an audience of R22 pilots as possible. From most of the responses here, I'd say he has been quite succesful, he certainly was with me.
As for R22M auto characteristics: Tim Tucker, who should know, once told me the really big difference was if you got the pedal wrong on entry (left instead of right). Because of the large side area of the floats below the CG, the large sideslip angle with full left pedal can roll you past vertical bank in an instant.
As for R22M auto characteristics: Tim Tucker, who should know, once told me the really big difference was if you got the pedal wrong on entry (left instead of right). Because of the large side area of the floats below the CG, the large sideslip angle with full left pedal can roll you past vertical bank in an instant.
The thing is, not all pilots are great pilots. Many of us are merely average. Sadly, "just average" helicopter pilots will get culled from the herd sooner or later. Probably sooner. Helicopters are simply intolerant of mistakes that one *might* get away with in an airplane. I've said it before, helicopters are very, very easy to crash, and the results are usually tragic.
Stick around this industry long enough and you'll be a party to some accidents (hopefully not in the first-person). I've witnessed one fixed-wing and four helicopter crashes happen, one from inside the ship, me at the controls. And I used to have a videotape that a friend at a t.v. station put together showing a whole bunch of helicopter crashes "caught on tape" as it were.
It's not fun from any perspective. In fact, watching a helicopter crash, either live or on tape is very disturbing for me. We wince, with a real sense of empathy for what the poor guy at the controls is going through in his final seconds. And it reminds us, as if we should need reminding at all, that we better be on our toes if we want to keep doing this successfully.
The sky is vast, but there is no room up there for a "merely average" helicopter pilot. Failing to recognize the onset of carb ice is simply inexcusable, even more so is the failure to maintain rotor rpm. That pilot (and his wife) paid with their lives. But he's not the first and surely won't be the last.
All I can say is, I work hard to make sure that the next one is not me. Don't let it be you either.
Stick around this industry long enough and you'll be a party to some accidents (hopefully not in the first-person). I've witnessed one fixed-wing and four helicopter crashes happen, one from inside the ship, me at the controls. And I used to have a videotape that a friend at a t.v. station put together showing a whole bunch of helicopter crashes "caught on tape" as it were.
It's not fun from any perspective. In fact, watching a helicopter crash, either live or on tape is very disturbing for me. We wince, with a real sense of empathy for what the poor guy at the controls is going through in his final seconds. And it reminds us, as if we should need reminding at all, that we better be on our toes if we want to keep doing this successfully.
The sky is vast, but there is no room up there for a "merely average" helicopter pilot. Failing to recognize the onset of carb ice is simply inexcusable, even more so is the failure to maintain rotor rpm. That pilot (and his wife) paid with their lives. But he's not the first and surely won't be the last.
All I can say is, I work hard to make sure that the next one is not me. Don't let it be you either.
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I know how you feel. That video had a real effect on me too.
I was shown it the week before I was due to go solo, couldnt get that image out of my mind. However I sure as hell checked the Carb heat through that flight.
And maybe that was Franks point, Fly the helo first, everything else is second.
Like some of the other posters Ive seen worse in real life, Ive had the misfortune to be first on the scene at three fatal acidents, one of which a person died while I was performing CPR, yet that video definately effected moe much more.
I was shown it the week before I was due to go solo, couldnt get that image out of my mind. However I sure as hell checked the Carb heat through that flight.
And maybe that was Franks point, Fly the helo first, everything else is second.
Like some of the other posters Ive seen worse in real life, Ive had the misfortune to be first on the scene at three fatal acidents, one of which a person died while I was performing CPR, yet that video definately effected moe much more.
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Saw the Robbo video again a few months ago at the last safety course. It's not pleasant, but I think it is necessary as it drives the point home, much like the road safety ads in Victoria. I think you will all agree that if it makes just one person more careful, it's served its purpose well.
When I was learning to fly, I was shown a 407 crash somewhere in Southeast Asia. The machine was slinging something onto a tower with non essential crew on board and the area below full of workers. The machine appeared to lose T/R control and dropped losing its tailboom on the way down. When it hit the ground, it shed it's M/R blades and they went through the crowd of people on the ground resulting in a horrific loss of life.
When I was learning to fly, I was shown a 407 crash somewhere in Southeast Asia. The machine was slinging something onto a tower with non essential crew on board and the area below full of workers. The machine appeared to lose T/R control and dropped losing its tailboom on the way down. When it hit the ground, it shed it's M/R blades and they went through the crowd of people on the ground resulting in a horrific loss of life.
Anyone who stomps on the wrong pedal during an engine failure should not have licence.
End of story.
All licensing someone like that does, is make a mockery of the qualification 'Helicopter Pilot'.
This is the major issue with commercial aviation:
If you have enough money you can eventually spend your way into a PPL or CPL.
Should you fail a test a couple of times you can still return until that day when the conditions are perfect and you luck into a passing grade on your ride. Then one day you will do what this person did and make the insurance rates worse, aircraft reputation worse, opportunities for young pilots worse and force someone else to clean up your mess after you.
One of the best things about the military is the limited number of opportunities you have to screw up.
How did a pilot who pushes the wrong pedal get a licence? who issued it? The CFI should have his arse kicked for that.
End of story.
All licensing someone like that does, is make a mockery of the qualification 'Helicopter Pilot'.
This is the major issue with commercial aviation:
If you have enough money you can eventually spend your way into a PPL or CPL.
Should you fail a test a couple of times you can still return until that day when the conditions are perfect and you luck into a passing grade on your ride. Then one day you will do what this person did and make the insurance rates worse, aircraft reputation worse, opportunities for young pilots worse and force someone else to clean up your mess after you.
One of the best things about the military is the limited number of opportunities you have to screw up.
How did a pilot who pushes the wrong pedal get a licence? who issued it? The CFI should have his arse kicked for that.