The Next Step - Copilot twin or Single Capt
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The Next Step - Copilot twin or Single Capt
Any body have the answers
I am trying to make up my mind as to whether to apply for a co-pilots position or stick to being a SEL.
A bit of background.
I have 2300 hrs total helicopter, 1900 turbine, 2200 in command, 40 hrs night, 100 EMS.
There are always jobs being advertised for co-pilots on twin machines. I have heard stories of guys getting trapped in the co-pilots seat for life.
-Is this the norm or are the stories exaggerated?
-What are the chances of moving into the captains seat and after how long?
-Are the companies who hire for these positions after someone with more than 500 hrs as they all ask for min 500 hrs? Am I wasting my time applying with 2300?
-How else do you get into a twin? Do I even want to?
Thanks in advance
Grogan
I am trying to make up my mind as to whether to apply for a co-pilots position or stick to being a SEL.
A bit of background.
I have 2300 hrs total helicopter, 1900 turbine, 2200 in command, 40 hrs night, 100 EMS.
There are always jobs being advertised for co-pilots on twin machines. I have heard stories of guys getting trapped in the co-pilots seat for life.
-Is this the norm or are the stories exaggerated?
-What are the chances of moving into the captains seat and after how long?
-Are the companies who hire for these positions after someone with more than 500 hrs as they all ask for min 500 hrs? Am I wasting my time applying with 2300?
-How else do you get into a twin? Do I even want to?
Thanks in advance
Grogan
Last edited by Grogan; 11th Mar 2004 at 16:53.
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I take it you are referring to the recent Bristows add ?? The info sheet they send out says 5-7 years as copilot.
Friends at CHC are hoping for quicker advancement I think, but time will tell.
Esso was coeys forever but I've heard recently that could be changing.
As for your hours I know people that have gotten in with over 3000 hours but I think it may be an age thing ?? Not sure but I think the older you are the less chance you seem to have.
Do you want to ? Well the money is ok. The prospects are ok. Its the 10 - 15 flying hours per month that puts me off.
Friends at CHC are hoping for quicker advancement I think, but time will tell.
Esso was coeys forever but I've heard recently that could be changing.
As for your hours I know people that have gotten in with over 3000 hours but I think it may be an age thing ?? Not sure but I think the older you are the less chance you seem to have.
Do you want to ? Well the money is ok. The prospects are ok. Its the 10 - 15 flying hours per month that puts me off.
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From what I've seen:
Yes, there are guys out there who are in a 'co-pilots for life' situation. This isn't the norm. A problem is going into the copilot's seat without enough PIC time.
Usually the pay aasociated with a co-jo position is why they advertise for 500 hours, they don't expect to get more. Those higher time SEL guys who wish to make the transition and are willing/able to accept the pay are welcome in that they are better candidates for quick captaincy if a position becomes available.
Hope this helps. All my opinion.
Yes, there are guys out there who are in a 'co-pilots for life' situation. This isn't the norm. A problem is going into the copilot's seat without enough PIC time.
Usually the pay aasociated with a co-jo position is why they advertise for 500 hours, they don't expect to get more. Those higher time SEL guys who wish to make the transition and are willing/able to accept the pay are welcome in that they are better candidates for quick captaincy if a position becomes available.
Hope this helps. All my opinion.
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I'm currently working with a large international IFR company, and the CP always gets phone calls from older guys wanting jobs - these will be copilots for ever, simply because in some environments (like Cougar in Halifax) it will take a long time simply to get total hours, let alone useable hours for command. Although heloteacher makes a good point, single hours PIC are less valuable than twin hours PIC.
My opinion, if you're young enough, is to go for the IFR/co jo position, with a view to at least getting home (nearly) every night and possibly more job security, if that's what you want in later life, and don't want to be part of the queue looking for work in September every year. Get around 500 hours twin under your belt before going back to singles, unless fate dictates otherwise.
Good luck
Phil
My opinion, if you're young enough, is to go for the IFR/co jo position, with a view to at least getting home (nearly) every night and possibly more job security, if that's what you want in later life, and don't want to be part of the queue looking for work in September every year. Get around 500 hours twin under your belt before going back to singles, unless fate dictates otherwise.
Good luck
Phil
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All those hours and you still can't make up your mind, or haven't figured out how the system works.
Have you been flying around in a daze all this time???
What's this?? "les miserables helicopteres".
Wake up, if you get trapped you can always call the police. doh
YES YOU ARE.
helo teacher knows.
2300 hrs total helicopter, 1900 turbine, 2200 in command, 40 hrs night, 100 EMS.
I have heard stories of guys getting trapped in the co-pilots seat for life.
Wake up, if you get trapped you can always call the police. doh
Am I wasting my time applying with 2300?
helo teacher knows.
Grogan,
I was 32 with around 2400 hours similar to you when I had an interview with Bristows for a cojoe slot.
They knocked me back, their explanation to me was that they didn't think I would be willing to wait around for up to 7 years for a captaincy, despite me saying it wasn't a problem. They did also say my hours were on the high side for what they were looking for at the time.
Unless I just completely f*%$!@# the interview up.....
I was 32 with around 2400 hours similar to you when I had an interview with Bristows for a cojoe slot.
They knocked me back, their explanation to me was that they didn't think I would be willing to wait around for up to 7 years for a captaincy, despite me saying it wasn't a problem. They did also say my hours were on the high side for what they were looking for at the time.
Unless I just completely f*%$!@# the interview up.....
Here is my story. I ask bloodycrow and redhot CH to make a comment....
I was very fortunate to pickup a cojoe possie at ESSO. Suberb experience, great comraderie and an excellent place to do my apprentiship into twins. I still today use all the advice in my present position.
I did 1500hrs of cojoe and then went back to the bush. I always called it "money in the bank"....something that I was sure I could fall back on if I needed a job.
A couple of years of the NT was showing no further progress, so I started to get onto the bandwagon with the rest of the Ex-Esso lads and look overseas for work. At that time CHC was grabbing as many Esso 76 pilots that they could get their hands on and I ended up having my resume forwarded to CHL and a command offering on the 76 followed in Canada. Had I not got the copilot time in then I would never have had the offer from Canada. Can't complain at all.
The issue at the time was that Bristows were looking at pilots for Karratha and offered me a position. I made enquiries and heard from the OP Man that I could expect 5yrs as a copilot before a 76 command. **** that. Now considering the 2yrs already and the fact that I had 1500hrs on type; I felt that this was unreasonable. I also reckoned that the Bristow turnover was very low and why would they give you a command if there was no position available there? Also what if they lost their contracts in that time? Here we are with thousands of copilot hours 2+ years (maybe 7!) and out looking for another job.
"Yes sir, I have been a copilot for 3500hrs S76, IFR and 7yrs...can I fly your Jetranger"?
A: "No sorry, the client needs 200hrs on type. You are underqualified....."
OK: next stop the bush again and all that hassle.
My idea is that the copilot time in Australia is great. It gets you through the "apprentiship" quickly and affords you opportunities with the big overseas companies in a short time. They are more than happy to move a 1000hr - 1500hr cojoe in to a command slot. The same time offers you very little in the way of advancement in Australasia.
Of particular interest to pilots is that overseas your half your copilot time is considered command for contracts.
The offshore companies in OZ are also hesitant to take on a 35yr old guy (you are not alone coyote....) A couple of my friends have been knocked back. I don't understand that, because a 35yr old is pretty stable and likely to enjoy the job for a long time to come. Whereas a young fella (like me!) rapidly becomes bored.
As the canuks say: Go figure
I was very fortunate to pickup a cojoe possie at ESSO. Suberb experience, great comraderie and an excellent place to do my apprentiship into twins. I still today use all the advice in my present position.
I did 1500hrs of cojoe and then went back to the bush. I always called it "money in the bank"....something that I was sure I could fall back on if I needed a job.
A couple of years of the NT was showing no further progress, so I started to get onto the bandwagon with the rest of the Ex-Esso lads and look overseas for work. At that time CHC was grabbing as many Esso 76 pilots that they could get their hands on and I ended up having my resume forwarded to CHL and a command offering on the 76 followed in Canada. Had I not got the copilot time in then I would never have had the offer from Canada. Can't complain at all.
The issue at the time was that Bristows were looking at pilots for Karratha and offered me a position. I made enquiries and heard from the OP Man that I could expect 5yrs as a copilot before a 76 command. **** that. Now considering the 2yrs already and the fact that I had 1500hrs on type; I felt that this was unreasonable. I also reckoned that the Bristow turnover was very low and why would they give you a command if there was no position available there? Also what if they lost their contracts in that time? Here we are with thousands of copilot hours 2+ years (maybe 7!) and out looking for another job.
"Yes sir, I have been a copilot for 3500hrs S76, IFR and 7yrs...can I fly your Jetranger"?
A: "No sorry, the client needs 200hrs on type. You are underqualified....."
OK: next stop the bush again and all that hassle.
My idea is that the copilot time in Australia is great. It gets you through the "apprentiship" quickly and affords you opportunities with the big overseas companies in a short time. They are more than happy to move a 1000hr - 1500hr cojoe in to a command slot. The same time offers you very little in the way of advancement in Australasia.
Of particular interest to pilots is that overseas your half your copilot time is considered command for contracts.
The offshore companies in OZ are also hesitant to take on a 35yr old guy (you are not alone coyote....) A couple of my friends have been knocked back. I don't understand that, because a 35yr old is pretty stable and likely to enjoy the job for a long time to come. Whereas a young fella (like me!) rapidly becomes bored.
As the canuks say: Go figure
Last edited by Steve76; 12th Mar 2004 at 21:36.
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Thanks guys for the info (except deeper who doesn't seem to know what he is talking about on any thread).
It gives me some ideas but I feel from what you have said I am too old (mid 30's) for the coey position. Will make further enquiries to make sure.
Grogan
It gives me some ideas but I feel from what you have said I am too old (mid 30's) for the coey position. Will make further enquiries to make sure.
Grogan
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I think Steve76 has summed it up for those of you who are currently sitting on the fence.
Just adding to the above, in my experience, it's actually harder to find a good co-pilot position in the industry than it is to get a command job flying a single.
By that I mean a position that will give you maximum (quality) exposure in twins in the least amount of time.
In hindsight, if I was starting from scratch and had to choose between a cp or a command slot on a single, I'd go cp.
Fortunately, I never did have that option because at the time, I most likely would have choosen to log command instead.
As a result, I managed to walk out with a total of 1450 hrs of twin time in 24 months..and one way or the other the command time still came.
Now, if you are in a position where you already have the command time (and are obviously inclined to go twin/IFR) then in my opinion the decision is all that more easier.
Just adding to the above, in my experience, it's actually harder to find a good co-pilot position in the industry than it is to get a command job flying a single.
By that I mean a position that will give you maximum (quality) exposure in twins in the least amount of time.
In hindsight, if I was starting from scratch and had to choose between a cp or a command slot on a single, I'd go cp.
Fortunately, I never did have that option because at the time, I most likely would have choosen to log command instead.
As a result, I managed to walk out with a total of 1450 hrs of twin time in 24 months..and one way or the other the command time still came.
Now, if you are in a position where you already have the command time (and are obviously inclined to go twin/IFR) then in my opinion the decision is all that more easier.
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Just a quick addition.
Someone I know quite well
recently answered the Bristows add and sent in an application. he has just under 2000 hours, 500 of which is turbine, and is 38 years old. The silence from Bristow so far has been deafening.
Someone I know quite well
recently answered the Bristows add and sent in an application. he has just under 2000 hours, 500 of which is turbine, and is 38 years old. The silence from Bristow so far has been deafening.
