When did you last do a training engine off landing?
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When did you last do a training engine off landing?
Ok, you work for a commercial company or a Police unit and you fly a single, when did you last get some training for yourself and practice some full engine out autos to the ground?
Be honest!
Be honest!
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I don't fly singles any more, but when I did, we did lots of autos at every recurrent training session. We did them until we were comfortable and the check pilot was comfortable with us, and usually we did a few more than he required, just for the fun of it. The last time I did a full auto to the ground was in an S76. We usually only do single-engine failures at recurrent, but in transition checkouts and occasionally other times we get a full auto in a twin.
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WE do a 6 monthly base check that includes auto's but not to the ground all ours are power recoveries due to percieved risk v benefit.
So the last practice auto to the ground was in 98 last real one was in 2002
So the last practice auto to the ground was in 98 last real one was in 2002
Last auto was about five hours ago in a 407, we try and do at least one a month. Also fly a bell 430 but practice autos are prohibited and we can only practice them in the simulator, which we do every six months.
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Flygunz........the last full auto that I did was a range auto in a B206 at Sault Ste Marie airport in Ontario, Canada. The Canadians have this aversion to engine off landings on grass and insist on EOLs to the numbers on the tarmac!!!
The B206 was also autorotated from a 100' hover, very interesting and at times a little unnerving.
I also did several full autos in the R22 flying deathtrap to the tarmac.........ouch, I never really did like doing those.
The R22 was also auto'd to the ice on St Mary's river just outside the hangar.........Yahooooooooooo.
I guess that was just before I retired from the business.
Full autos to the ground, in my opinion, are definately worth the risk, especially in the queen of the skies, the wonderful, ba** breaking Westland Scout, the flying brick!!!
The B206 was also autorotated from a 100' hover, very interesting and at times a little unnerving.
I also did several full autos in the R22 flying deathtrap to the tarmac.........ouch, I never really did like doing those.
The R22 was also auto'd to the ice on St Mary's river just outside the hangar.........Yahooooooooooo.
I guess that was just before I retired from the business.
Full autos to the ground, in my opinion, are definately worth the risk, especially in the queen of the skies, the wonderful, ba** breaking Westland Scout, the flying brick!!!
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When I was flying singles I did them every annual training session as a line pilot. Any company I worked for had always approved extra training if it was requested, such as when going back onto a type I hadn't flown in a few months.
Did them constantly as a training pilot.
The last full auto to touchdown in a twin (Bell 212) was in 1994 but have done them annually in the sim since then.
Did them constantly as a training pilot.
The last full auto to touchdown in a twin (Bell 212) was in 1994 but have done them annually in the sim since then.
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You asked . . .
Did you mean "engine out" as in shut down the engine? or engine at idle, full touchdown autorotation?
If you meant "engine off", I have only done this once, and there is a great difference!
It's very different to autorotate to the ground with the helicopter at idle than with the "engine off".
I don't really know why its different, but you can feel it particularly after the flare portion of the auto, when you usually pull collective to cushion landing, the thing just drops.
when did you last get some training for yourself and practice some full engine out autos to the ground?
If you meant "engine off", I have only done this once, and there is a great difference!
It's very different to autorotate to the ground with the helicopter at idle than with the "engine off".
I don't really know why its different, but you can feel it particularly after the flare portion of the auto, when you usually pull collective to cushion landing, the thing just drops.
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It has seems to me that practicing autos is about saving lives whereas practicing autos to the ground is about saving machines and with the amount of training accidents and the amount of airframe stress caused by touchdown autos then it may be false economy
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Blender, fair point, theres always been a problem with the English language across the Atlantic so apologies for the poor description.
What I'm looking for here is how often you get some decent training and in particular what I would call 'Engine off landing' practice. Whether or not for any particular single type this means at idle doesn't matter, the important profile is:
Full autorotation with the engine decoupled.
An engine off technique to a landing and full stop.
What I'm looking for here is how often you get some decent training and in particular what I would call 'Engine off landing' practice. Whether or not for any particular single type this means at idle doesn't matter, the important profile is:
Full autorotation with the engine decoupled.
An engine off technique to a landing and full stop.
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A While back....... In Canada around April `02 for EOL. But I`m not flying commercially yet.
Did power recoveries in UK in a 206 as part of a check out for self fly hire. It amazes me the different techniques - As when I did the power recovery here, I was asked only to lower the collective ?! Whereas in Canada we closed the throttle to idle to enter auto and brought in throttle a 500' (slowly not exceeding the 40% Tq) for the power recovery.... Anyone else heard of that?
KennyR - why in Canada do they do autos to the tarmac? Thats all I ever did - the bonus i spose is that you are accurate to a fixed spot(i.e. the numbers) - but the drawback surely is that the technique is different in a real life situation (rarely is there a runway available)
Can anyone offer an insight into the EOL auto to unprepared surfaces? Especially for a low inertia machine where run-on is inevitable? (or a light turbine in low wind)
Did power recoveries in UK in a 206 as part of a check out for self fly hire. It amazes me the different techniques - As when I did the power recovery here, I was asked only to lower the collective ?! Whereas in Canada we closed the throttle to idle to enter auto and brought in throttle a 500' (slowly not exceeding the 40% Tq) for the power recovery.... Anyone else heard of that?
KennyR - why in Canada do they do autos to the tarmac? Thats all I ever did - the bonus i spose is that you are accurate to a fixed spot(i.e. the numbers) - but the drawback surely is that the technique is different in a real life situation (rarely is there a runway available)
Can anyone offer an insight into the EOL auto to unprepared surfaces? Especially for a low inertia machine where run-on is inevitable? (or a light turbine in low wind)
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Decimal, I thought it very strange that in Canada we did full engine off landings (engine and gearbox uncoupled, engine at idle) to the ground on a very unforgiving surface. The run on takes a heavy toll on the skids of most helicopters.
In the Brit Mil, all (or at least the majority) of EOLs are carried out to prepared grass, much gentler on the helicopter undercarriage.
The R22 is a bit*h to stop on tarmac, the B206 is not a problem as it can be virtually hovered before cushioning touchdown.
As far as EOLs to an unprepared surface, I cant help you there. I have only done training EOLs to a prepared surface (grass or tarmac). However even doing EOLs to a prepared grass surface can be "hairy" at times especially with a nervous student. Again , it depends on the type of helicopter and the inertia in the disc. The Westland Scout autos like a brick sh*thouse and the run-on is quite long under normal conditions. The Gazelle is very mild-mannered in auto and the run on can be as short as you want to make it (holding the flare a second longer with pitch applied). The R22, for its size is, as I have said before, is a real bit** to stop short. B206, a dream to EOL with the high inertial rotor system.
(edited to answer Decimals question)
In the Brit Mil, all (or at least the majority) of EOLs are carried out to prepared grass, much gentler on the helicopter undercarriage.
The R22 is a bit*h to stop on tarmac, the B206 is not a problem as it can be virtually hovered before cushioning touchdown.
As far as EOLs to an unprepared surface, I cant help you there. I have only done training EOLs to a prepared surface (grass or tarmac). However even doing EOLs to a prepared grass surface can be "hairy" at times especially with a nervous student. Again , it depends on the type of helicopter and the inertia in the disc. The Westland Scout autos like a brick sh*thouse and the run-on is quite long under normal conditions. The Gazelle is very mild-mannered in auto and the run on can be as short as you want to make it (holding the flare a second longer with pitch applied). The R22, for its size is, as I have said before, is a real bit** to stop short. B206, a dream to EOL with the high inertial rotor system.
(edited to answer Decimals question)
Last edited by KENNYR; 2nd Mar 2004 at 00:52.
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Any time I do/have done a proficiency check in a single engine machine it was always with a full touchdown to the ground. There was a time some years back when there was a problem with clutches in AS350B variants and then the engine had to be shut down completely for the engine off landing practice. The only difference I notice was that everything was much quieter. The handling was the same. But one expect that, yes?
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Decimal - did the Canadians tell you why they wanted you to not exceed 40%tq when opening the throttle?
As far as I know, the only time this is applicable to a 206 is when advancing the throttle to flight idle on the ground. And even then its not an FM restriction, only a recommendation so that the ship doesnt spin if the ground happens to be slippery / icy.
ST
As far as I know, the only time this is applicable to a 206 is when advancing the throttle to flight idle on the ground. And even then its not an FM restriction, only a recommendation so that the ship doesnt spin if the ground happens to be slippery / icy.
ST
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Steve,
Good point - can`t really remember why - but definitely told to advance throttle slowly, so used the 40% as in run up. I guess you don`t need anymore on your mind in the auto, with the ship yawing all over the place.
Thanks KennyR for the explanation - I haven`t EOLed any machines on a grassy surface - so not too sure how it would react. In an R22 for instance , with run on, couldn`t the skids or shoes dig in too hard and cause a roll? I`d certainly feel more comfortable in a 206, but in the UK I see some training schools doing full ons to grass in R22s. I admit they must take into account conditions i.e. wind, time of year, is the ground wet ? etc. Does that mean no full ons in the winter/wet months? (90% of the year for the UK!)
Cheers
Good point - can`t really remember why - but definitely told to advance throttle slowly, so used the 40% as in run up. I guess you don`t need anymore on your mind in the auto, with the ship yawing all over the place.
Thanks KennyR for the explanation - I haven`t EOLed any machines on a grassy surface - so not too sure how it would react. In an R22 for instance , with run on, couldn`t the skids or shoes dig in too hard and cause a roll? I`d certainly feel more comfortable in a 206, but in the UK I see some training schools doing full ons to grass in R22s. I admit they must take into account conditions i.e. wind, time of year, is the ground wet ? etc. Does that mean no full ons in the winter/wet months? (90% of the year for the UK!)
Cheers
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Decimal, the nicest thing about being in the Military is the unlimited budget.
Seriously, we did "full EoLs" onto the grass in any weather. Rain, snow or sunshine. The skids will only "dig in" if the aircraft is mishandled by the handling pilot. The aircraft can be held lighter on the skids with pitch and it is essential that the lever is not dropped to the floor in too much of a hurry!!!
I found the most dangerous things that a student did during an EOL were flaring too early (leaving one high and dry with not a lot of options) or over-rotating when levelling ready for the cushioning "pull".
I never did carry out an EOL in an R22 to a grass surface, it was always to the tarmac or ice-covered river. If you can do an EOL in a Scout to a grass surface then an R22 is a "piece of cake", so to speak. P.S. Did I mention that I hate the R22 and everything it stands for?
Seriously, we did "full EoLs" onto the grass in any weather. Rain, snow or sunshine. The skids will only "dig in" if the aircraft is mishandled by the handling pilot. The aircraft can be held lighter on the skids with pitch and it is essential that the lever is not dropped to the floor in too much of a hurry!!!
I found the most dangerous things that a student did during an EOL were flaring too early (leaving one high and dry with not a lot of options) or over-rotating when levelling ready for the cushioning "pull".
I never did carry out an EOL in an R22 to a grass surface, it was always to the tarmac or ice-covered river. If you can do an EOL in a Scout to a grass surface then an R22 is a "piece of cake", so to speak.
P.S. Did I mention that I hate the R22 and everything it stands for?
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Okay flygunz, here is one.
Last time was in January. We do a six month recurrency in my department. And all of ours is full touchdown, unless it is screwed up on the way down. All of our helicopters are single engine, except one. And we only practice on a runway here as anything that looks green is most likely sand painted green.
Also, most of the larger police departments I know all practice to the ground.
Last time was in January. We do a six month recurrency in my department. And all of ours is full touchdown, unless it is screwed up on the way down. All of our helicopters are single engine, except one. And we only practice on a runway here as anything that looks green is most likely sand painted green.
Also, most of the larger police departments I know all practice to the ground.
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KENNYR
You say the R22 is a Bit*h to carry out an EOL, this depends on your experience in the machine. Crazy as it sounds i would much prefer an real engine out in an r22 than a 206 due to well over a 1000 hours plus i have in the 22 with only 60ish hours in the bell. This also goes for the 44 which i have several hundred hours in, including many EOL's i still prefer the 22 skidding down the field
Now where did i put my marbles???????????????????????????????
Back to the question, after many years skipping round EOL's in the 22 i now do them all the time in even in light winds subject to weight of cause.
You say the R22 is a Bit*h to carry out an EOL, this depends on your experience in the machine. Crazy as it sounds i would much prefer an real engine out in an r22 than a 206 due to well over a 1000 hours plus i have in the 22 with only 60ish hours in the bell. This also goes for the 44 which i have several hundred hours in, including many EOL's i still prefer the 22 skidding down the field
Now where did i put my marbles???????????????????????????????
Back to the question, after many years skipping round EOL's in the 22 i now do them all the time in even in light winds subject to weight of cause.