Bell 222 & 230
Hey DK, perhaps next time you get into inadvertant icing you can set fire to your RFM to thaw things out.
Please don't do the preaching thing at Bladestrike...its so CHC management. Very uncool.
Do some research into BS's (no offence intended
) history on this forum and you will see your comments are unjustified.
Please don't do the preaching thing at Bladestrike...its so CHC management. Very uncool.
Do some research into BS's (no offence intended
) history on this forum and you will see your comments are unjustified.
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BS......Strong post with great advice. Despite everything printed, every Warning, Caution and Note printed for us guys to adhere to, we still have to do the job based on judgement and what info is made available...never mind the actual validity! Hell, none of us would ever get off the ground if we had perfect Met and Forecasters! Icing is probably one of the most serious met conditions to concern ones self over for pre-planning, but it also helps if you understand all there is to know that will directly effect your heli should one inadvertantly encounter such conditions! So the semantics of intentionally flying in to Known Icing is exactly that...semantical!
DK, and all the Weenies who are getting hot under the collar over ice....read and be fluid....don't get iced up about it....chill and be cool, be a sponge and soak up all the knowledge and evident experiance thats coming over on some of these threads!!
Ya'll have a nice day and Happy New Year with lots of Safe Flying and Fun!
DK, and all the Weenies who are getting hot under the collar over ice....read and be fluid....don't get iced up about it....chill and be cool, be a sponge and soak up all the knowledge and evident experiance thats coming over on some of these threads!!
Ya'll have a nice day and Happy New Year with lots of Safe Flying and Fun!
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Hi Steve76!
Sorry, not in the loop about "CHC management " thing!! Please explain?
For Helipolarbear... I've got stories too about icing up but am not going into detail. Bladestike and I seem to have the same outlook on icing but why would Steve76 and yourself make this a personal attack.?
Us "weenies " are just too slow witted to understand!
D.K
Sorry, not in the loop about "CHC management " thing!! Please explain?
For Helipolarbear... I've got stories too about icing up but am not going into detail. Bladestike and I seem to have the same outlook on icing but why would Steve76 and yourself make this a personal attack.?
Us "weenies " are just too slow witted to understand!
D.K
Thanks for the support guys.
I'd really like some input on my earlier question, what constitutes icing conditions? (to satisfy the RFM and lawyers)
Besides the obvious freezing precip, is it any cloud below zero or when icing is forecast or only when you actually pick up ice?
I know from experience two guys flying a few minutes apart, same altitude, same route, one can pick up ice and one won't. It's incidious stuff and waiting till you pick it up to turn around may be abit late in the game as it may have moved in behind you. Personally, I'd prefer to avoid tempting fate.
I've heard in the North Sea that its accepted as long as there is a solid "out", like 1000 foot ceilings and above freezing temps below???
If you are flying in cloud below zero, and you pick up ice, is it still considered "inadvertent"?
I'd really like some input on my earlier question, what constitutes icing conditions? (to satisfy the RFM and lawyers)
Besides the obvious freezing precip, is it any cloud below zero or when icing is forecast or only when you actually pick up ice?
I know from experience two guys flying a few minutes apart, same altitude, same route, one can pick up ice and one won't. It's incidious stuff and waiting till you pick it up to turn around may be abit late in the game as it may have moved in behind you. Personally, I'd prefer to avoid tempting fate.
I've heard in the North Sea that its accepted as long as there is a solid "out", like 1000 foot ceilings and above freezing temps below???
If you are flying in cloud below zero, and you pick up ice, is it still considered "inadvertent"?
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DK, the 'RFM' doesn't take into account every possible scenario, including inadvertant conditions. Ice in any form is a pain in the a**! It can have catastrophic results when encountered, in a very short period of time. If there are known Iceing conditions, at a profile route you wish to fly.......don't, unless you have the equipment. However, when the temp is +4 degrees, visable moisture present.......no reported iceing......it is still possible to pick up. Worse than ice is freezing rain that is rarely forecasted, but can still materialize at your flight level. The RFM is not specific about it. Just good old commom sense by the pilot!
Don't mind the term 'Weenies'......just getting a rise from you!
Nothing personal..........Have a Happy Xmas!
Don't mind the term 'Weenies'......just getting a rise from you!
Nothing personal..........Have a Happy Xmas!
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cloudchaser5, my own experiance, and those of my coleages, is that the b222 takes the ice really well. Flying in the artic, we pick it up from time to time(not intensionaly, offcourse), never experianced any trouble with vibrations and such, even when it's on the hub and blades, but as Aesir points out it get's anoying when you windshield is covered with ice..
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Bell 222UT info needed!
Working for a company that needs LONG range and LOTS of payload...the eternal wish! 
Can any 222UT pilots pass on available payload when full with gas? If you could include the average fuel burn and usual TAS that would be much appreciated!
Anyone know if a B230 would be even better than a 222UT?
Many thanx for the help guys...
Can any 222UT pilots pass on available payload when full with gas? If you could include the average fuel burn and usual TAS that would be much appreciated!
Anyone know if a B230 would be even better than a 222UT?
Many thanx for the help guys...
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1980 B222 and cannibalized B222 for sale $500K (US)
4,600 Hours Airframe
Independant survey completed Dec 03
With Aux tank range 350nm + 20 minute res
130 to 145 KIAS
25 thru 600 inspections due. C of A due
Recent paint and New interior. SPIFR Wx radar
Not a 222UT or 230, but great price!
4,600 Hours Airframe
Independant survey completed Dec 03
With Aux tank range 350nm + 20 minute res
130 to 145 KIAS
25 thru 600 inspections due. C of A due
Recent paint and New interior. SPIFR Wx radar
Not a 222UT or 230, but great price!
Hi Birdman.
I fly the 222U model regularly.
Operating weight including pilot is 5.900 Lbs (No fuel)
Fuel is 1670 Lbs.
AUW (Max gross) is 8250 Lbs.
This gives you about 680 Lbs (309 kg) payload with full standard tanks which give you about 3 hrs endurance or 360 Nm range with no reserve at 540 lbs fuel burn pr/hr and 120 kts IAS respectively!
Please note that our helicopters are very heavy equipped with floats, cargo hook, arctic survival gear etc etc...
I always calculate 600 Lbs fuel burn pr/hr, it gives a little extra safety margin and makes it easier to calculate.
Its a nice helicopter to fly and will handle max load with no problem (w/ LTS 101-750 engines).
I fly the 222U model regularly.
Operating weight including pilot is 5.900 Lbs (No fuel)
Fuel is 1670 Lbs.
AUW (Max gross) is 8250 Lbs.
This gives you about 680 Lbs (309 kg) payload with full standard tanks which give you about 3 hrs endurance or 360 Nm range with no reserve at 540 lbs fuel burn pr/hr and 120 kts IAS respectively!
Please note that our helicopters are very heavy equipped with floats, cargo hook, arctic survival gear etc etc...
I always calculate 600 Lbs fuel burn pr/hr, it gives a little extra safety margin and makes it easier to calculate.
Its a nice helicopter to fly and will handle max load with no problem (w/ LTS 101-750 engines).
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I have flown lots of both the 230 and 222 and I could give you precise information but I need more precise info, like altitude and temps to be operated, and the area where you will be taking off and landing, do you need hover OGE performance? When taking off from a misson can you make a running takeoff (not saying drag the skids, just gain speed while in hover)
For example, either machines are real pigs at altitude and you can carry much more/longer in a B407. At 7,500FT, 20ºC the B230 can Take off OGE 7,750 LBS and the heli itself weighs almost 6,000 LBS, then to make matters worse every 1ºC above this temperature is 50LBS less than you can carry! But we need this performance because of the elevated rooftop helipads, maybe you have a flat surface to gain speed.
Then there is the 222SP which has B230 engines, it has slightly better performance. B230's are really hard to get, there were only 36 built, and EMS outfits are constantly searching for them.
For example, either machines are real pigs at altitude and you can carry much more/longer in a B407. At 7,500FT, 20ºC the B230 can Take off OGE 7,750 LBS and the heli itself weighs almost 6,000 LBS, then to make matters worse every 1ºC above this temperature is 50LBS less than you can carry! But we need this performance because of the elevated rooftop helipads, maybe you have a flat surface to gain speed.
Then there is the 222SP which has B230 engines, it has slightly better performance. B230's are really hard to get, there were only 36 built, and EMS outfits are constantly searching for them.
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Thanks guys! Much appreciated...we're kind of working blind here on the B222 so any info is gonna help!
Blenderpilot:
We operate from sea level (with a nice long take off area) and cruise for 1hr @ 120kts at 5000' then descend to a confined pad for landing (no run on but normal appr angle). Return is at 6000'. We need to take four POB (380kg) and have floats on it too! We can strip the interior down to nothing if required and it needs to be SPIFR.
I guess we're looking for a machine that can give us 3.5hrs endurance (including reserve) and can lift close to 400kg...are we dreaming?
Hope you can find the time to send some details...once again it's really much appreciated!
Birdman.
Blenderpilot:
We operate from sea level (with a nice long take off area) and cruise for 1hr @ 120kts at 5000' then descend to a confined pad for landing (no run on but normal appr angle). Return is at 6000'. We need to take four POB (380kg) and have floats on it too! We can strip the interior down to nothing if required and it needs to be SPIFR.
I guess we're looking for a machine that can give us 3.5hrs endurance (including reserve) and can lift close to 400kg...are we dreaming?
Hope you can find the time to send some details...once again it's really much appreciated!
Birdman.
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Hey John,
We fly two, one hour sorties = 2.0 (No fuel at destination)
Need IFR reserves = 0.5
Fuel for a TEMPO(if reqd) = 1.0
Total fuel requirement = 3.5!
By the way, how do you think the A109E would do for this kind of mission? I've heard it's a bit thirsty, however as you have flown it, could you pass on any opinion?
Thanks!
Birdman.
We fly two, one hour sorties = 2.0 (No fuel at destination)
Need IFR reserves = 0.5
Fuel for a TEMPO(if reqd) = 1.0
Total fuel requirement = 3.5!
By the way, how do you think the A109E would do for this kind of mission? I've heard it's a bit thirsty, however as you have flown it, could you pass on any opinion?
Thanks!
Birdman.
109E
Birdman,
109E: nice fast cruise, comfortable, but little payload at the moment. Possibility of Agusta upping the MAUW to 3000kg on the cards, but with floats & SPIFR I'd doubt that you'd get the 400kg payload. Normal cruise about 145kias, burn at 6000ft would be around 205kg/hr, max fuel about 650kg (IIRC; I'm at home away from the books!).
Aircraft weight in VIP/aircon/knobs & whistles mode gives 160kg payload with full fuel. Allowing another 150kg when/if Agusta ups the MAUW will give you 310kg, plus you may save 100+kg if the aircraft were configured in utility. So, a possibility for your operation, especially since the faster cruise would reduce your trip time to c. 50 minutes, thus reducing fuel requirement to 3.2 hours. You'd have to check on the weight of the float configuration, though.
109E: nice fast cruise, comfortable, but little payload at the moment. Possibility of Agusta upping the MAUW to 3000kg on the cards, but with floats & SPIFR I'd doubt that you'd get the 400kg payload. Normal cruise about 145kias, burn at 6000ft would be around 205kg/hr, max fuel about 650kg (IIRC; I'm at home away from the books!).
Aircraft weight in VIP/aircon/knobs & whistles mode gives 160kg payload with full fuel. Allowing another 150kg when/if Agusta ups the MAUW will give you 310kg, plus you may save 100+kg if the aircraft were configured in utility. So, a possibility for your operation, especially since the faster cruise would reduce your trip time to c. 50 minutes, thus reducing fuel requirement to 3.2 hours. You'd have to check on the weight of the float configuration, though.
Installing the aux fuel tank will give you about 308 Lbs extra fuel if I remember correctly, thats just over 30 min so it will satisfy your requirements of 3:30 fuel.
Your payload will only be around 170 Kgs on the first leg but on the 2nd leg after 1 hr flying you´ll have a 450kg payload!
Depends on your mission requirements.
Now I dont really know the B-230/B222SP but I thought it had the R-R Allison C-30 engiens, excellent engines but I have never heard of them bigger than 650 Hp !!!
The -750 engines in the U model have a 735 Hp 2.5 min limit. Is it really possible to pull more power out of the C-30 engine or is the Lycoming perhaps the more powerful option?
In terms of reliability there is absolutely no problem operating the Lycoming LTS 101, my company has 6 ea B222U models which fly thousands of hour every year for many years with no problems whatsoever, they are excellent engines after all SB´s and inspections have been complied with.
But expensive to operate, I´m sure the C-30 is cheaper to run.
Your payload will only be around 170 Kgs on the first leg but on the 2nd leg after 1 hr flying you´ll have a 450kg payload!
Depends on your mission requirements.
Now I dont really know the B-230/B222SP but I thought it had the R-R Allison C-30 engiens, excellent engines but I have never heard of them bigger than 650 Hp !!!
The -750 engines in the U model have a 735 Hp 2.5 min limit. Is it really possible to pull more power out of the C-30 engine or is the Lycoming perhaps the more powerful option?
In terms of reliability there is absolutely no problem operating the Lycoming LTS 101, my company has 6 ea B222U models which fly thousands of hour every year for many years with no problems whatsoever, they are excellent engines after all SB´s and inspections have been complied with.
But expensive to operate, I´m sure the C-30 is cheaper to run.
Fuel capacity A109E
Birdman,
Now back near the books, and full Usable fuel for a 109E with both supplementary tanks is 688kg/860lt. This is for the standard 109E, the Elite has slightly less fuel available due to the re shaped rear bulkhead.
Now back near the books, and full Usable fuel for a 109E with both supplementary tanks is 688kg/860lt. This is for the standard 109E, the Elite has slightly less fuel available due to the re shaped rear bulkhead.
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Thanks Aesir,
However we need the 380kg payload on departure from base...so can't take advantage of the fuel burn off!
Thanks John,
The A109E sounds possible if the MAUW is increased by Agusta...not holding my breath on that one tho!
If anyone has any ideas as to which machine will do the job, please feel free to offer assistance!
Birdman.
However we need the 380kg payload on departure from base...so can't take advantage of the fuel burn off!
Thanks John,
The A109E sounds possible if the MAUW is increased by Agusta...not holding my breath on that one tho!
If anyone has any ideas as to which machine will do the job, please feel free to offer assistance!
Birdman.
Options
If you can get external or internal overload tanks for a 117, it's an option. MAUW is 3350kg, expect about 2000 - 2100kg empty for a float equipped machine. Fuel burn is 220kg/hr at altitude, cruise speed about 125kias, but may drag back a bit with floats and external tanks.
So, disposable load will be about 1300kg, less 4 p.o.b. 400kg, leaves 900kg for fuel, 4hrs. Standard internal fuel is only 568kg useable, you'd need to find an extra 250kg or so of overload tank to make your 3.5hr requirement. Not difficult, there are a number of 117's around now with external tanks, and with only a few pax inside, there would be heaps of cabin or boot space to install an internal tank.
Or even an S76, for a few more dollar$
So, disposable load will be about 1300kg, less 4 p.o.b. 400kg, leaves 900kg for fuel, 4hrs. Standard internal fuel is only 568kg useable, you'd need to find an extra 250kg or so of overload tank to make your 3.5hr requirement. Not difficult, there are a number of 117's around now with external tanks, and with only a few pax inside, there would be heaps of cabin or boot space to install an internal tank.
Or even an S76, for a few more dollar$