Diesel powered helicopters
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On the RAR news group there was some conjecture that Robinson were soon too announce a Diesel powered ( French of German ) engine R44 . The french one claims 3,000 hr TBO and 30 % les fuel cost. Do you think it would catch on ?. I've been told engine is around 80K usd.
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I have no idea whether Robinson are developing a diesel Robbo, but here in Europe where Avgas is both very expensive and soon likely to be scarce it seems like a great idea. Avgas is around 90 p per litre with Jet A1 around 30-35 p. Aside from reduced fuel costs, you don't get carb icing, and I would much rather carry a tank full of Jet A1 than Avgas around with me.
All of these things matter much less across the pond, let alone in California. I hope the rumour is correct or stimulates the factory or some other outfit to look at it.
All of these things matter much less across the pond, let alone in California. I hope the rumour is correct or stimulates the factory or some other outfit to look at it.
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Generally, diesel engines weigh considerably more for the same power, because of the heavier structure in the engine to withstand the very high compression required to ignite the fuel. Diesels burn less fuel in the job, though so they offset some of the engine weight. Diesel aircraft are rare because of the weight issue.
Iconoclast
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There are two types of Diesel engines. The one mentioned by Nick fires by the heat of compression and in many cases has a blower of some type acting to pre-compress the charge although some compression Diesels do not employ a blower. As Nick indicated this type of engine is quite heavy for its’ physical size. This type of engine is normally of the two-stroke type and runs at a lower RPM than the engine type described below
However there is another type of Diesel engine (referred to as Hesselman Cycle) and this type of engine uses glow plugs to ignite the fuel and as such does not require the robust structure employed on a compression Diesel engine. As a result they are much lighter in weight. There are several German companies developing radial Diesel engines for use on aircraft.
However there is another type of Diesel engine (referred to as Hesselman Cycle) and this type of engine uses glow plugs to ignite the fuel and as such does not require the robust structure employed on a compression Diesel engine. As a result they are much lighter in weight. There are several German companies developing radial Diesel engines for use on aircraft.
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As stated by widgeon, a similar topic was discussed in rec.aviation.rotocraft. The original post had nothing to do with diesel engines in Robbies, however the discussion turned in that direction. There was speculation about an R55 / R66 – turbine, turbo, diesel etc … all speculation !
One of the things that was uncovered was that there are a few companies developing diesel aviation engines. The first consensus was diesel’s will never hack it, they are too heavy ….. well if we examine the Zoche vs the Lycoming we get :
ZO 02A 530. .Height 25.5 24.5. .Width 25.5 33.3. .Length 32.9 37.2. .Weight 271 369. .HP 250 300
Zoche also claim sea level performance up to 9000 ft. Believable if you consider the major advancement in diesel technology in the past 2 years or so. Ever driven the latest BMW 530D. Before I get shot down, I know the BM doesn’t have a Zoche under the hood, however technology has advanced and performance / reliability has had a serious shot in the arm.
I’m a recreational pilot and only fly for the pleasure of it and all my flying is done above 6000ft, in fact I have only ever logged 1.5 hr at sea level. If there were two 44’s next to each other, one standard and the other diesel, it wouldn’t be a difficult choice for me to make to fly the diesel version. We always joke here, the 44 is a great 2 seater ! Considering we all trained in the 22 and still fly them all the time, maybe there should also be a diesel option for the 22 !
One of the things that was uncovered was that there are a few companies developing diesel aviation engines. The first consensus was diesel’s will never hack it, they are too heavy ….. well if we examine the Zoche vs the Lycoming we get :
ZO 02A 530. .Height 25.5 24.5. .Width 25.5 33.3. .Length 32.9 37.2. .Weight 271 369. .HP 250 300
Zoche also claim sea level performance up to 9000 ft. Believable if you consider the major advancement in diesel technology in the past 2 years or so. Ever driven the latest BMW 530D. Before I get shot down, I know the BM doesn’t have a Zoche under the hood, however technology has advanced and performance / reliability has had a serious shot in the arm.
I’m a recreational pilot and only fly for the pleasure of it and all my flying is done above 6000ft, in fact I have only ever logged 1.5 hr at sea level. If there were two 44’s next to each other, one standard and the other diesel, it wouldn’t be a difficult choice for me to make to fly the diesel version. We always joke here, the 44 is a great 2 seater ! Considering we all trained in the 22 and still fly them all the time, maybe there should also be a diesel option for the 22 !
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The weight issue is no longer such a big deal - I would hesitate to use Zoche as an example - he has spent more money on attending Oskhosh than on developing his engines! However if you look at the Thielert it has a similar firewall forward weight to an O-320. The Thielert is 135 hp and obviously the Lycoming 160. Once you are over 3000' then the Thielert is more powerful. Now given that the Thielert is a Mercedes conversion the arguments about diesels being a lot heavier seem to fall to bits.. .Dedicated designs, I suppose the Wilksh is closest at the moment should be a lot lighter - the 120hp wilksch has a target weight of 100kg, versus the 137 kg of the Thielert.. .Even the Renault engines are said not to be much heavier - and the fuel burn is so much lower that the extra weight is not a handicap.. .Given European fuel costs there is a real need for these fuels - lets hope the rumour is true!
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I know that it is an aeroplane and not a helicopter but I've flown a PA28 fitted with a 1.7 litre diesel in Germany and there is a DA40 flying in Austria with the same engine. Diamond hope to bring the diesel version to market sometime later this year. In addition they hope to fly a diesel twin (aeroplane) at ILA Berlin later in the year. SMA are also producing aero diesel engines.. .<a href="http://www.thielert.com/en/index.html" target="_blank">Thielert</a>
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Whilst Diesels now seem to be the fashionable thing for GA FW's to think about, I do feel that a thumper in the back of any R22 or R44 would be very counter productive, in my humble opinion the only way forward for the light helicopters is to go turbine, Now the R44 with a turbine and a three or four blade head, and individual cyclic's would be somthing that would be worthy of sitting in everyone's front garden, it might even allow the rear end of the R44 to be finished off properly, rather than look like it has has some collision with a low brick wall! After all we are told that the Jetranger is being stopped, so uncle Frank could step in and take the lead in small privatly owned Helis for the future. 
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If someone could come up with a small turbine that had reasonable purchase cost and more importantly overhaul costs then it would be possible.R44 is currently 310K USd extra purchase cost with current certified turbines would be closer to 500 K usd ( Engine exchange cost is 21K allison 250 is closer to $200 k ). Operating cost is 124 USd/hr , turbine overhaul reserve would add minimum of $50 an hr. The Enstrom turbine has not been exactly flying of the shelves .
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There is a discussion about diesels on the TECH forum.
I think they would be a great idea as in remote areas it is a lot easier to find jet-a1 than avgas.
Another benefit if there are many aircraft working at a remote site i.e. forest fire fighting . .the contracting agency would only need to stock . .1 type of fuel .
I think they would be a great idea as in remote areas it is a lot easier to find jet-a1 than avgas.
Another benefit if there are many aircraft working at a remote site i.e. forest fire fighting . .the contracting agency would only need to stock . .1 type of fuel .
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I think the diesel heli idea has a lot going for it.
As well as fuel commonality mentioned earlier a decent range might be possible.
Being more efficient there's less waste heat to lose, and presumably less useless time needed for warm up and cool down.
Possibly more tolerant of abuse, and surely a longer TBO just like road engines.
For me the greatest bonus is losing the magnetos and carby ice.
Brilliant, hope they do it
As well as fuel commonality mentioned earlier a decent range might be possible.
Being more efficient there's less waste heat to lose, and presumably less useless time needed for warm up and cool down.
Possibly more tolerant of abuse, and surely a longer TBO just like road engines.
For me the greatest bonus is losing the magnetos and carby ice.
Brilliant, hope they do it
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1. Avgas is the only leaded fuel around here. Since the airplane fuel usage vs. automotive usage is just a drop vs. ocean. Not only ecology but also oil rafineries will drive out avgas - (not all engines can accept Mogas).. .2. Current piston engine designs are unbeliveably obsolete,(thirsty, ecollogicaly unacceptable, heavy) Nor Lyc nor TCM considers any radically new gasoline powered design - they even work on their own diesels (maybe to little, too late). .3. Small turbine which is affordable, is not achievable (yet). .Considering these facts, SMA (Renault), Thillert...diesels are the way we will go in piston engine powered aircrafts.. .First Tillert conversion is hopefully coming to an aeroclub nearby - I`m barely waiting to check it out!. . Mihael
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I remember seeing on the discovery channel a bus that was powered by a small turbine, I was not sure of the model or manufacturer but it was used solely to generate electricity for the bus. It was also very fuel efficient. Perhaps the technology does exist?
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Diesel powered rotary
Now that the fixed wing fraternity have a Jet A powered craft when will the rotary wing manufactures follow suit.
Why should helicopters designed in recent years be powered by engines of the 1930's?
Will Robinson, with it's huge output of rotorcraft lead the field?
Anybody know anything on this?
Why should helicopters designed in recent years be powered by engines of the 1930's?
Will Robinson, with it's huge output of rotorcraft lead the field?
Anybody know anything on this?
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HT,
Its an interesting thought - there has been at least one extensive thread in the past with, as I recall, all sorts of interesting perspectives. Have a look when the search function is operational.
It would not half bring down the cost of operating an R44, for example.
Its an interesting thought - there has been at least one extensive thread in the past with, as I recall, all sorts of interesting perspectives. Have a look when the search function is operational.
It would not half bring down the cost of operating an R44, for example.
Just two weekes ago I sent a e-mail to Schweizer asking if they were considering installing a diesel in the 300C. Maybe something like the SMA 230 hp engine.
I received response immediately and they said they were indeed considering diesels but at the time they were not an option due to cost but they were following all advances in the diesel tecnology.
They also said that the SMA diesel, although in the same horsepower category as the HIO360 D1A Lycoming at 225 hp was to heavy to be feasible.
I received response immediately and they said they were indeed considering diesels but at the time they were not an option due to cost but they were following all advances in the diesel tecnology.
They also said that the SMA diesel, although in the same horsepower category as the HIO360 D1A Lycoming at 225 hp was to heavy to be feasible.
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Diesel Engines
This web site may be of interest; DeltaHawk Diesel Engines
Ditto for the second half of this page; The Front Royal Unicom
Dave J.
Ditto for the second half of this page; The Front Royal Unicom
Dave J.
I think this one should also be here "Randcam Rotary Diesel" at least it has power to weight ratio around 0,34kg/hp when most piston engine are between 2-3kg/hp. lycoming maybe 1,5kg/hp
so from fact that you could have 230hp engine that where 80kg
sounds to good to be true
http://www.regtech.com/
so from fact that you could have 230hp engine that where 80kg
sounds to good to be true
http://www.regtech.com/
Gatvol
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Ah, the advances in technology. How about maybe a Coal/Wood Fired Steam Engine. That way the Robbie could justify a flight engineer also to shovel fuel.......
Better yet...Nuclear Power.....The new age of Crash and Glow.......
Better yet...Nuclear Power.....The new age of Crash and Glow.......