Bristow helicopter near miss with Tornado off Aberdeen

[Experienced Bloke]

HummingFrog.

Good points, all well made.

This area of airspace definitely does not get enough visibility in the flying community and needs some form of proper control/discussion. I just know that the topic will be flavour of the month now, but it needs constant pressure.

All FJ operators I know make a mandatory call to Aberdeen when they transit the coast, and ALL of them are below 1000ft. I know, I taught most of them.

If it had been an F3 there is no guarantee he had his radar on (or even that it was servicable). Even the GR4 has a limited Air-to-Air capability (if the radar is on and it is servicable). However, no matter what mark of Tornado, there is no substitute for good airmanship and an RT call.

We are all aware of the height band of the Helicopters, but also aware of their changes, especially for icing. This puts you right into our height bracket though (and normally when the weather is at its worst).

Points for the Helicopter guys:

Never assume that there isn't some fly boy out there somewhere in his Swing Wing Arrow of Death. Be VERY aware that his lookout is probably considerably more restricted by large chunks of iron work than yours. Also, even though he is probably looking out, he is more used to the sight of other 500 mph aircraft rather than a 120 knot helicopter. Points about the Aberdeen RAS are well made.

Points for the FJ. LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT. Never assume that Aberdeen will be able to see you at 250 feet, or that he is even that interested in your VFR transit, south to north, not above 1000 feet. He has more than enought Civvy and helicopter traffic to worry about.

Hope I DONT see you soon. Save a sticky bun and a coffee for me.

[Hilico]

At least one operator's aircraft, engaged on low-ish level patrol, have been fitted with the Skywatch TCAS system. I don't know offhand whether that just lets the heli identify the military traffic or the jet jock gets a beep in his cockpit. In any case, the kit that fits in a 206 would be barely noticeable in a 332.

You might have heard a rumour that after picking up an approaching jet same level at 1000ft, the heli started a descent and the jet followed it down, passing quite close over the top of the 'target', which was by that time in full auto. But I couldn't possibly comment.

[SirToppamHat]

Crashondeck Said:

Do these fast jet crews realise that most of the time NS helos are IMC with only a FIS?

IMC on a FIS? See and be seen? How? At least an F3 (assuming it was an F3) has an AI radar. I doubt whether a FJ would continue the mission in IMC.



In the reported position of the incident, neither the civvies nor the military have good radar cover at low level - something to do with the curvature of the earth I believe!

One other point here, and it is not intended to score points, but my understanding of the way the F3/SHAR crews operate when practising intercepts at Low Level (LL) is that they work in pairs (or more), with one (group) acting as targets for the other as fighter(s).

For a target at LL (250-1000ft) to be seen by an opposing fighter, the fighter must have some additional height (say 5000ft+). This is again a function of radar physics but also because they have their own inter-formation sanctuaries. The fighter will look to descend to the target's height only if/when they get and can maintain radar contact or tally on the target.

The idea that F3s practising low-level interception techniques can 'stay clear' of the height bands within which the helos operate is misguided.

The tornado GR4, and other interdictor types can stay at LL for extended periods, but there is always a possibility that any FJ may need to LL abort and climb for weather reasons.

Finally, because I've banged on enough already, I think it may be worth noting that the MDAs to the south and east of Aberdeen (D613A/B/C) are often NOTAM'd as active from FL100 up, but I understand that this does not mean that aircraft operating in these areas are limited to not going below that FL. A planned sortie operating in the height block Sea Level to FL350 in 613C, for example, would, if entitled to segregation, result in a NOTAM for 613C from FL100 to FL350; this can give the wrong impression. It is also worth noting that when a sortie operates entirely within an MDA, it is possible for another to be height-stacked beneath it.

[Bomber ARIS]

It's just not bloody good enough!!!

The UK´s oil reserves are serviced by helicopter fleets operating with poor radio coverage, nothing but a FIS beyond the 80nm point, inclement weather, with feeble management (irresistible,isn't it!) If that's not enough, they're expected to have to put up with Johny Jet Jockey and his clan!!

I honestly don't give a flying f**k what they're trying to achieve -when they're doing it where I'm working, I just want them gone! Surely we could syphon a little off the North Sea Oil revenue and pack them all off to the Canadian praries. Or why not try the west coast?

Having flown in the UK, both onshore and off, my abiding memories are of having had a complete guts full of fast jets.

I dutifully submitted AIRPROX forms for all of my close encounters with military hardware, only to have my account of matters watered down on the account of the Hawk/Tornado/Jaguar/etc pilots testimonies. The resulting conclusions never did seem to tally with the experiences of by my crew and I, and all I was able to learn from the reports was that "everything was fine, it wasn't as bad as you had imagined and by the way you're obviously unable to judge distance/height/percieved danger".

I understand why people have little faith in these Hutton-esque charades, but am saddened because I believe that yet another fatal jet vs. helicopter airprox is just around the corner

I had not intended to become animated on this issue, but I have just had far too many jets thrown at me in peacetime Britain.

[Power Up]

So these jet jocks admit to struggling with to complete a good lookout at 500kts LL, yet they can give a better judgement of distance than a 2 pilot helicopter operating at approx a quarter of the speed?

Is it me or does that not seem right?

[incubus]

Hmmm. Perhaps they are more accustomed to flying close to aircraft, for whatever reason, than your typical helicopter crew.

[whoateallthepies]

The Aberdeen helo routes are well promulgated so if Mr Fox 4 and his/her pals intend to fly through or near them then they should be keeping a damn good look out and not scanning weapons/radar/bandits at 6 0'clock

[GJB]

If the FJ's can't maintain a good look-out at 500ks, then why are they operating within such busy classG where potentially conflicting traffic is known to exist, and where that traffic is known not to have TCAS, or operating with a RAS/RIS, and is far less manouverable? Okay, so the heli-crew are operating with a FIS because there is no radar coverage..........what's stopping the FJ calling up on for a FIS? Too busy playing with their nobs?

I'm sorry to come down heavy on the FJ crew here, but it's appalling flight planning for them to take their aircraft into such busy ClassG. I tend not to fly below 500' as that is where the FJ's tend to operate. If I had an airprox by doing so, then I'd probably end up in the sh*t (even though I'd have as much right to be there as them.)

Perhaps the FJ's should extend the same courtsesy, keeping out of the way of NS heli routes, so the crews can get on with reading the Times and eating their sticky buns

[AllyPally]

I agree with you GJB that it is questionable airmanship to operate within the N Sea helicopter route structure without due consideration to where the helicopters will be, but why would a helicopter crew be prosecuted for flying to the Beatrice at 500ft if they had an Airpox?

AP

[Hummingfrog]

Ex B

Thanks for that. You never know you may see me soon but not know!! I had to hold, in my Tutor, over 27 at Leuchars for 25mins last week while the pointy things practised their landings. If you’re ever in 12 AEF the coffee is on me!! (What anonymity).


HF

[gadgetbent]

As far as I am aware the ac variant was an F3, from 56 Sqn at RAF Leuchars. They were supposedly under the control of FC at the time, but as the F3 was low level, they were not painting on any radar that the FC had access too, nor was the helo. The first that the FC knew about it was when the F3 climbed and had also appeared to **** himself. Apparently the ac tapes indicate less that 60ft sep. The pilot RTB'd immediately as he had maxed the airframe in avoiding the helo.
Due to the trg requirements of 56 Sqn they need to operate at low level on occassions and unfortunately due to fuel constraints need to operate in that area. Ideally, they would operate to the south of the HMRs but this is not practical.
I agree that this was a serious incident, and that they only way to avoid it in the future would be to establish a helicopter corridor around the HMRs. At the mo with it being Class G, it is everyman for himself. Keep a good look out for arrows of death.

[RobinXe]

Can anyone tell me what it says in the blue boxes scattered liberally over the half mil civil charts, captioned "Military Low Flying System"?

[Crashondeck]

So they maxed the airframe? Does that mean that the airframe will have to be used as a gate guardian now?

It seems crazy to me that the MOD still wont put money into some form of TCAS. Maybe if it saved the occasional maxed airframe, then payback would be swift.

Gadget - how do you mean fuel constraints? That the Tornado has only a poxy short range when doing operational training, or is it the MOD penny pinching and stopping you guys from getting the training that you want and the tax payers expect?

[RobinXe]

Tax payers expect? Just how do they expect it to be payed for, would they rather pay more tax, or sacrifice some spending on schools or hospitals?

[GJB]

Certainly Robin, in fact you answered your own question.

By the same token can you tell me what the array of lines, emanating from ABZ and drawn out over the North Sea represent?

[RobinXe]

Certainly not non-UK airspace, therefore the liberally distributed caveat I mentioned applies.

[GJB]

I would suggest my "warning" also applies

[keithl]

Most of the comments on this have been refreshingly well-balanced and recognise that this is a very difficult business. I don’t have the solution, but I want to point out how evenly balanced the problem is, and by doing so, quiet some of the more outrageous views, particularly “Bomber Aris” whose chosen name does at least indicate some admiration for the RAF!

Bristow people will recognise me and know I have some interest in airspace and IFR matters.

1. It’s Class G airspace and no-one has more right to be there than anyone else.
2. Both crews were equally frightened and are (presumably) equally anxious to solve this problem.
3. The military started using the North Sea for training way before there were any oil rigs there. That was in response to complaints from the populace to “send them away somewhere”. Now, the “newcomers” want the military to move on again. Do we want to turn them into unwanted “travellers”?
4. Someone makes the point that there are lots of obstructions to lookout in a Tornado. Not as much as in a 332 where most of the helicopter is in the way!
5. The HMR structure occupies a huge area. Given that not all HMRs are occupied all the time, and that the helos could be anywhere from 500ft to FL85, and that the HMRs themselves carry no kind of protection (as airspace), is it reasonable to close it all off to military a/c?
6. If the traffic density warrants it, the airspace could be redesignated (Class F perhaps. It’s not an advisory route, but the rules for Class F would appear to fit the bill). Have the helo operators explored this? But I suspect that traffic density, being much lower than on airways, would not actually win the case.

I said I didn’t have the answer, and BHL folk know where to find me if they disagree, but lets not allow this to turn into “we’re Goodies, they’re Baddies”. It's a difficult problem and we need to work together to solve it.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

My understanding is that this particularly nasty incident happened on HMR 117 (the most Southerly Aberdeen radial) at about 130nm. As a matter of fact (from the F3 pilot's report) he was flying at 300kts at the time of the airprox. Some good comments here, not least the fact that the HMR structure covers a very extensive piece of sky. If it was made Class F, this would pose the following problems:

a. Who would provide the mandated ATC service? There is no point in providing CAS if you cannot control within it! The rig operators would have to stump-up a significant amount of money; how willing are they to do this? Right now, even the RT infrastructure isn't that brilliant!

b. Under the current regs for Class F, only participating ac would be involved. Consequently, without the introduction of additional systems such as radar, ADS-B, ACAS etc, the only risk reduction would be between helos flying the routes.

Finally, and somewhat emotively, why do these arguments always come down against "cowboy and uncaring" FJ operators. It seems to me that they are equally keen to avoid bumping into other aircraft. The title of this thread could have easily been:

"Bristows Puma has near miss on Tornado 130nm from Aberdeen"

[keithl]

Point well made, Mr SATCO. I meant to include in my list, "Both parties are trying to do their daily work, There are no 'cowboys' in this".