As a hoist operator, what kind of data or performance metrics would you like to see?
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As a hoist operator, what kind of data or performance metrics would you like to see?
If you are a hoist operator, I'm interested to hear your perspective on this. When you're doing rescues, training, hoist cycles in general, etc., what what kind of performance metrics would you like to see? Cable management, deflection strength, load control, etc.?
I've seen some interesting videos and heard stories about things they can do in aorcraft simulators now, and the data that they generate is impressive. It can really boost your training. Just curious as to what you guys would be interested in seeing, in an ideal world!
Cheers
I've seen some interesting videos and heard stories about things they can do in aorcraft simulators now, and the data that they generate is impressive. It can really boost your training. Just curious as to what you guys would be interested in seeing, in an ideal world!
Cheers
Long time since, but it's an area with lots of contradictions and differentiations between 'operating' and training. Cable length ? 120' ?... 250' ? ...60' ? (Whirlwind). Motive power ? Electric, pneumatic, or hydraulic ? Control switch - type (fixed/remote/wander lead etc plus (for the training role ...dual ?) Deployment /recovery speed ? ...Stop reaction (Lucas pneumatic had approximately 18"" 'overrun' on the Gazelle ! 
... cable laying (Lebus drum ?)
Definitely a bit of string of variable length !! ...and quality
Takes me back to a 555 meeting at Wastelands ... 3 models to consider ... choice made ? ... of course ... the cheapest !
... cable laying (Lebus drum ?)Definitely a bit of string of variable length !! ...and quality
Takes me back to a 555 meeting at Wastelands ... 3 models to consider ... choice made ? ... of course ... the cheapest !
This should be good!
An interesting subject especially the simulator idea.
I saw a post about a longline simulator setup somewhere that apparently works well especially in initial training..so that could serve as a good basis for a hoist sim…complete with dark night, stormy seas and heaving, rolling, rapidly sinking ships with tall masts and a panic stricken crew speaking some unknown dead language.
This thread will either be very interesting and helpful with open minded discussions, good suggestions and information exchanged or quickly descend into vicious arguments and name calling. Threats will be made, friendships shattered.
Got the popcorn and cold beer.
Carry on!
An interesting subject especially the simulator idea.
I saw a post about a longline simulator setup somewhere that apparently works well especially in initial training..so that could serve as a good basis for a hoist sim…complete with dark night, stormy seas and heaving, rolling, rapidly sinking ships with tall masts and a panic stricken crew speaking some unknown dead language.
This thread will either be very interesting and helpful with open minded discussions, good suggestions and information exchanged or quickly descend into vicious arguments and name calling. Threats will be made, friendships shattered.
Got the popcorn and cold beer.
Carry on!
Last edited by albatross; 20th Apr 2024 at 14:34.
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VR is the way forward for a lot of winch operating training, from basic 'patter' to complex situations BUT only as a precursor to doing it live in an aircraft.
With VR and a 'dummy' aircraft cabin you can practice everything from basic winching to stretcher entry, day and night.
I'm not sure exactly what 'metrics' you are after rbbd
With VR and a 'dummy' aircraft cabin you can practice everything from basic winching to stretcher entry, day and night.
I'm not sure exactly what 'metrics' you are after rbbd
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@crab That's the kind of thing I was thinking too. Some of the simulators out there now are very detailed, and I would assume that they collect all kinds of different information when you use them.Things like cable management, load control, hoist speed, etc. It would be interesting to see what kind of performance metrics come out of it so you would see how well you perform in a given situation.
I think it all depends on the instructor or the person in the situation though, as to what kind of information they would want to see. A bunch of graphs showing their cable management strength when deflection, cable control, hoist speed, etc.? Whereas someone else may want to see how the operator controls the load/survivor and prevents them from spinning or getting stuck in the TFZ.
I think it all depends on the instructor or the person in the situation though, as to what kind of information they would want to see. A bunch of graphs showing their cable management strength when deflection, cable control, hoist speed, etc.? Whereas someone else may want to see how the operator controls the load/survivor and prevents them from spinning or getting stuck in the TFZ.
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@albatross Very true. There are some impressive simulators out there now and I can only imagine that they collect all kinds of data. It would be interesting to see what kind of information could be collected so instructors could give feedback to trainee and show them what they are doing wrong, how to do it better, etc. We're in a data-heavy world now and I think this could really boost (at least) initial training.
I have not seen SAR aircraft with a VR longline bubble window and door.
Would there not be some, and I repeat some, situations where Vertical Reference techniques would be very useful in hoist ops.
A hoist, in a way is, a “Retractable Longline”.
Over water, particularly moving water, VR can be difficult so traditional methods may still work best.
Does the military teach/utilize VR in sling ops?
Would there not be some, and I repeat some, situations where Vertical Reference techniques would be very useful in hoist ops.
A hoist, in a way is, a “Retractable Longline”.
Over water, particularly moving water, VR can be difficult so traditional methods may still work best.
Does the military teach/utilize VR in sling ops?
VR (virtual reality not vertical reference) is used in training simulators only, not in the real aircraft, but I believe the Brit Mil are using simulators for USL training as well as winching.
A vertical reference bubble is not much use as you need to be in the door the winchman goes out and comes in so kneeling on the sill directly under the winch is the place to be.
The winchman is the best source of feedback about winch operating technique since he/she is the one being placed into or recovered from the mountain/sea/deck. You could have the best metrics in the world in the sim but if you smash the winchmen into the boat in real life you have completely destroyed your operational capability.
Awareness of the winchman (including his hand signals) his rate of movement vertically and horizontally and a constant scan of the aircraft position and proximity to obstacles are the key elements that need to be trained. That and decent, calm, accurate voice marshalling (patter).
The only practical way to control a spinning stretcher is to either put it back on the ground or get some forward speed on - the best option is to prevent the spin in the first place by using a hi-line or similar.
A vertical reference bubble is not much use as you need to be in the door the winchman goes out and comes in so kneeling on the sill directly under the winch is the place to be.
The winchman is the best source of feedback about winch operating technique since he/she is the one being placed into or recovered from the mountain/sea/deck. You could have the best metrics in the world in the sim but if you smash the winchmen into the boat in real life you have completely destroyed your operational capability.
Awareness of the winchman (including his hand signals) his rate of movement vertically and horizontally and a constant scan of the aircraft position and proximity to obstacles are the key elements that need to be trained. That and decent, calm, accurate voice marshalling (patter).
The only practical way to control a spinning stretcher is to either put it back on the ground or get some forward speed on - the best option is to prevent the spin in the first place by using a hi-line or similar.
Someone posted a short film some years ago of a stretcher hoist gone very wrong….it was spinning at very high RPM with the patient strapped in and the paramedic hanging on for dear life. Funny to watch but not so funny for the folks involved.
There was also the one where a stretcher was lowered to a wildly pitching deck of a small fishing craft ….they unhooked the stretcher and headed below to get the patient. A seaman still had the hook in his hand so he snapped it onto the rail ( Don’t want to lose this!) …turned and rushed below leaving the deck deserted and the helicopter firmly moored to the ship. The crew had some fun maintaining station while until the patient was brought up on deck. I would have luved to have heard the audio on that one.
There was also the one where a stretcher was lowered to a wildly pitching deck of a small fishing craft ….they unhooked the stretcher and headed below to get the patient. A seaman still had the hook in his hand so he snapped it onto the rail ( Don’t want to lose this!) …turned and rushed below leaving the deck deserted and the helicopter firmly moored to the ship. The crew had some fun maintaining station while until the patient was brought up on deck. I would have luved to have heard the audio on that one.
