Absurd Noise Complaint
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Absurd Noise Complaint
OK. So I'm with a student working on normal approaches to the numbers in an R22 at our home airport in Maryland. After our second approach, as we finish up a pedal turn, we get a call on UNICOM frequency about a local resident who just called to complain about the helicopter hovering at the end of the runway. This guy built his house within view of the runway and now he's calling to complain about the noise from an aircraft using the airport.
The airport I fly out of has noise abaitment procedures that were designed to appease the neighborhood to the south. Since the only thing to the north is a highway and some open space, I fly both traffic patterns on that side of the runway; I never fly over the community. There are no other helicopters based at the airport, so helicopter noise is not a constant problem around there.
It's one thing to complain about aircraft overflying your house, but to complain about aircraft using the runway... well, that just seems rediculous to me.
Anyway, I'm curious if other pilots have run into problems like this, and how you dealt with it.
Thanks,
Jeff
The airport I fly out of has noise abaitment procedures that were designed to appease the neighborhood to the south. Since the only thing to the north is a highway and some open space, I fly both traffic patterns on that side of the runway; I never fly over the community. There are no other helicopters based at the airport, so helicopter noise is not a constant problem around there.
It's one thing to complain about aircraft overflying your house, but to complain about aircraft using the runway... well, that just seems rediculous to me.
Anyway, I'm curious if other pilots have run into problems like this, and how you dealt with it.
Thanks,
Jeff
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: AZ
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We had a bunch of neighborhoods develope around KCHD which is the 60th busiest airport in the US. Once they moved in all we get now are noise complaints for using the helipad and airport that was there way before them. We try our hardest to keep noise to a minimum and no longer fly at our airport at night unless absolutely necessary. They all signed a contract about the airport but they still complain.
I hate people like this. They buy a house that is 20000 grand less than market value because its by an airport, they know the airport is there, then when there is noise they act like it is some big surprise. They do the same thing to landfills, cattle farms, etc.
I hate people like this. They buy a house that is 20000 grand less than market value because its by an airport, they know the airport is there, then when there is noise they act like it is some big surprise. They do the same thing to landfills, cattle farms, etc.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Australia
Age: 47
Posts: 728
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have had the same at our airport, there is a guy who lives on a farm about 500m from the airport, complains about helicopter and airplane activity over his house, the downwind leg on rwy 35 here is over his house, so your at least 1000' over his house anyway.
we had a similair problem when we had our heliport facility approved in our city. the heliport is in an industrail area on the banks of a river. closest residential area over 1000m away and we have a major highway between us and the residents.
we did some major noise testing, and concluded we could land helos upto supa puma, s76 etc and still be nowhere near the required numbers for accoustics.
the residents complained or queeried the tests carried out, and we had to have numerous community consultations for them to accept our proposal. we now have permission to operate 7 days from 0600 till 1000pm with flight path restrictions over the residential area. all in all a good result however it was a lot of hard work.
we had a similair problem when we had our heliport facility approved in our city. the heliport is in an industrail area on the banks of a river. closest residential area over 1000m away and we have a major highway between us and the residents.
we did some major noise testing, and concluded we could land helos upto supa puma, s76 etc and still be nowhere near the required numbers for accoustics.
the residents complained or queeried the tests carried out, and we had to have numerous community consultations for them to accept our proposal. we now have permission to operate 7 days from 0600 till 1000pm with flight path restrictions over the residential area. all in all a good result however it was a lot of hard work.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Queensland Australia
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The complaint about noise is often a cover for general complaining about all you "rich boys in your toys just out having fun or some other self-serving past-time that poor working people could aspire to but never get."
Two examples come to mind.
We'd been flying in and out of our hospital pad from about midnight through to daylight. True we had been in and out a number of times but not something we were doing for fun. We were unloading the last of several patients on the pad, who was unconscious, drips hanging out of both arms, intubated and on a ventilator - all obvious to any onlooker - and this red-faced little jerk came swaggering up brushing aside the secuurity officer and walks over and starts yelling at us for disturbing his guest-house patrons with our joy-rides that we were running all night! As far as he was concerned we were running jollies for tourists from the hospital pad!
Another was told to us by Rob Rich, one of the Oz gurus of Safety Courses etc. (Hope I recall it correctly - my apologies to Rob if I have wrongly recalled the details)
He was involved in some court case in Sydney where local woman was trying to get a city heliport closed down. She claimed it was all about noise - but meausured noise levels were less with helicopters than from the road noise outside her house. During cross-exinamtion this was put to her and she finally admitted that it wasn't fair that wives of rich men should be able to fly in and beat poorer women to the sales in the city. They should have to fight the traffic like everyone else!
Two examples come to mind.
We'd been flying in and out of our hospital pad from about midnight through to daylight. True we had been in and out a number of times but not something we were doing for fun. We were unloading the last of several patients on the pad, who was unconscious, drips hanging out of both arms, intubated and on a ventilator - all obvious to any onlooker - and this red-faced little jerk came swaggering up brushing aside the secuurity officer and walks over and starts yelling at us for disturbing his guest-house patrons with our joy-rides that we were running all night! As far as he was concerned we were running jollies for tourists from the hospital pad!
Another was told to us by Rob Rich, one of the Oz gurus of Safety Courses etc. (Hope I recall it correctly - my apologies to Rob if I have wrongly recalled the details)
He was involved in some court case in Sydney where local woman was trying to get a city heliport closed down. She claimed it was all about noise - but meausured noise levels were less with helicopters than from the road noise outside her house. During cross-exinamtion this was put to her and she finally admitted that it wasn't fair that wives of rich men should be able to fly in and beat poorer women to the sales in the city. They should have to fight the traffic like everyone else!
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Age: 75
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were a number of noise complaints at a helicopter factory from a neighbor who lived across a river from the plant. His house was about 1.5 miles from the plant along the road, but 500 yards as the crow flies. He did not know he was so close to the heliport, since the view was blocked by so many trees, so he thought all those helos were circling girls in the neighbor's swimming pool!
This guy was obnoxious enough to call one Saturday and yell at the fellow who picked up the phone. He told that pilot that he was a "Liar" because nothing had been done to quiet things down.
The pilot, a former Marine, cursed the guy out and told him to wait right there, he would be right over to kick his ass, since this guy had just insulted him. Strong words were swapped, followed by more threats and finally, the noise complaint fellow apologized. He never called a complaint again.
The lesson was obvious. Numerous meetings, visits, changes in flight patterns, free lunches and other attempts at appeasement simply empowered the complainer and made things worse. A Marine on the telephone is worth at least one noise abatement plan!
This guy was obnoxious enough to call one Saturday and yell at the fellow who picked up the phone. He told that pilot that he was a "Liar" because nothing had been done to quiet things down.
The pilot, a former Marine, cursed the guy out and told him to wait right there, he would be right over to kick his ass, since this guy had just insulted him. Strong words were swapped, followed by more threats and finally, the noise complaint fellow apologized. He never called a complaint again.
The lesson was obvious. Numerous meetings, visits, changes in flight patterns, free lunches and other attempts at appeasement simply empowered the complainer and made things worse. A Marine on the telephone is worth at least one noise abatement plan!
Back in the late 70s, some enterprising dude decided to develop a patch of dirt that was next to our air force base, right under the downwind leg.
He had the gall to ring the training squadron one Friday to tell us to be sure we didn't fly over him during the weekend, because he had a big sales push going, and he didn't want to frighten potential buyers by letting them see how close the jets were!
We scheduled a special weekend of flying, and made certain that every session in the circuit included at least one low-level circuit with everything hanging out and lots of power.
But he won - people bought, then complained. Pr1ck.....
He had the gall to ring the training squadron one Friday to tell us to be sure we didn't fly over him during the weekend, because he had a big sales push going, and he didn't want to frighten potential buyers by letting them see how close the jets were!
We scheduled a special weekend of flying, and made certain that every session in the circuit included at least one low-level circuit with everything hanging out and lots of power.
But he won - people bought, then complained. Pr1ck.....
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have a house 70m away from the threshold of one runway and the people who moved into it 3 years ago have been on the phone virtually every day of active flying. We changed procedures etc. to try and appease them, but it hasn't worked, in fact they are now worse than ever. We now totally ignore them except for whan military, police or air ambulance flights come in for a chat. After a quick word in their ears they will often screech over said house at low level on the departure giving it everything possible. When the super Pumas do it it is quite hilarious. The phone will ring "Sorry sir, but that was a military/police/Air ambulance machine and they can go where they like!
It's amazing, we haven't had any more complaints!!
I forgot to mention, these people own a lumber yard which is about 20m from their house, the volume of noise is incredible, but WE cause them a noise problem supposedly!
It's amazing, we haven't had any more complaints!!
I forgot to mention, these people own a lumber yard which is about 20m from their house, the volume of noise is incredible, but WE cause them a noise problem supposedly!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also ask any complainants if their house is on the noise problem register. If not, offer to put it on for them, but subtlely mention that will probably take 25% off the value of their property. In the U.K for any action to be taken against an airfield, then the affected house must be on this register. It has stopped alot of problems for us!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Noise Problem Register"
That's a great idea! I wish we had something like that, but most local decisions are made by the City Council. This is why it is important to have a good relationship with your FSDO and the local government. All it takes is one citizen to complain repeatedly, and then things can turn ugly.
However, almost all of the airports in the U.S. are part of the National Airpace System. As a result, they are funded by the FAA. If a local municipality tries to close an airfield, they will lose their funding. In some cases, they will have to repay a lot of money to the FAA for breaking their Agreements.
Sometimes, I listed to Talk/News radio. When they had the County Executive on the show, some bone-head called in and his first question was, "How do we close the airport?" When asked why, he said, "Those planes fly too low over my house and it is a safety hazard. We should close this airport."
I immediately jumped on the NTSB database and did a query for Montgomery Air Park (KGAI). In the last 20 years, there has never been an aircraft accident off the field. There has never been an impact to personal property or crash near any resident's house surrounding the airport. There were a few dings on the field from time to time (mostly student pilots running fixed-wing into the grass), but no accident. Obviously, this guy didn't know what the heck he was talking about.
If questioned, I try to him them in the wallet. General Aviation is a multi-billion dollar industry. We pay taxes, airport fees, and bring an enormous amount of revenue into communities with airports and/or heliports. How much would citizens have to pay in local taxes if we removed this revenue stream from the local economy?
General Aviation Serving America Website (click here)
However, almost all of the airports in the U.S. are part of the National Airpace System. As a result, they are funded by the FAA. If a local municipality tries to close an airfield, they will lose their funding. In some cases, they will have to repay a lot of money to the FAA for breaking their Agreements.
Sometimes, I listed to Talk/News radio. When they had the County Executive on the show, some bone-head called in and his first question was, "How do we close the airport?" When asked why, he said, "Those planes fly too low over my house and it is a safety hazard. We should close this airport."
I immediately jumped on the NTSB database and did a query for Montgomery Air Park (KGAI). In the last 20 years, there has never been an aircraft accident off the field. There has never been an impact to personal property or crash near any resident's house surrounding the airport. There were a few dings on the field from time to time (mostly student pilots running fixed-wing into the grass), but no accident. Obviously, this guy didn't know what the heck he was talking about.
If questioned, I try to him them in the wallet. General Aviation is a multi-billion dollar industry. We pay taxes, airport fees, and bring an enormous amount of revenue into communities with airports and/or heliports. How much would citizens have to pay in local taxes if we removed this revenue stream from the local economy?
General Aviation Serving America Website (click here)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hampshire, UK
Age: 56
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Try the villagers of Kimpton & Thruxton!! Airfield since WWII, villagers who have bought homes since 1945 = approx. 100%!?
Buy a home within the ATZ of an airfield (which has a motor racing circuit as well), what do you expect?
Buy a home within the ATZ of an airfield (which has a motor racing circuit as well), what do you expect?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All the stories sound fairly familiar, if you have flown at a number of airfields...
My inclination was always to try to be reasonable with complainers, but I am no longer so sure this is the best answer. At an airfield I used to do flight training at a few years ago, the flying school and airfield bent over backwards to try to respond to complaints, even when they were not reasonable.
Two things happened:
1. We ended up flying ridiculously complicated circuits and approaches/departures, which avoided the complainers' houses but exposed all sorts of other people (who did not complain) to concentrated noise since we flew in over the same patch time and again. Far from being satisfied, the complainers just raised their game, asking for more and more extreme requirements.
2. In order to derive an advantage over some other aspect of the airfield's operation, the airfield banned helicopter training.
My inclination was always to try to be reasonable with complainers, but I am no longer so sure this is the best answer. At an airfield I used to do flight training at a few years ago, the flying school and airfield bent over backwards to try to respond to complaints, even when they were not reasonable.
Two things happened:
1. We ended up flying ridiculously complicated circuits and approaches/departures, which avoided the complainers' houses but exposed all sorts of other people (who did not complain) to concentrated noise since we flew in over the same patch time and again. Far from being satisfied, the complainers just raised their game, asking for more and more extreme requirements.
2. In order to derive an advantage over some other aspect of the airfield's operation, the airfield banned helicopter training.
Gentleman Aviator
Best low flying/night flying complaint story I recall is from Northern Ireland detachment days. Much flying going on into and out of main HQ landing site at Lisburn Co Antrim.
Me sat on Ops desk listening to series of increasingly annoyed 'phone complaints from local resident, helpfully put on speakerphone by Ops Officer for general information/amusement.
Last call of many, about 0200 local:
Complainant: Look, all this noise is really bugging my wife and, if I can speak man-to-man, it's seriously affecting my sex-life.
Ops Officer: Look mate, I'm here for 4 months unaccommpanied, what do you think that's doing to MY sex-life!!!
Me sat on Ops desk listening to series of increasingly annoyed 'phone complaints from local resident, helpfully put on speakerphone by Ops Officer for general information/amusement.
Last call of many, about 0200 local:
Complainant: Look, all this noise is really bugging my wife and, if I can speak man-to-man, it's seriously affecting my sex-life.
Ops Officer: Look mate, I'm here for 4 months unaccommpanied, what do you think that's doing to MY sex-life!!!
I've often thought it should be pointed out to complainers:
a) That their house price isn't adversly affected in and of itself by the fact that there's an airfield in close proximity. What's pulling it down is the fact that there are a number of people in the neighbourhood stridently claiming that the noise from the airfield is "soul-destroying".
b) That because they have complained, they are now legally bound when selling the property, to tell prospective purchasers that they find the noise intolerable. Which really will put the mockers on any sale.
My favourite noise complaint story was reported in 'Pilot' magazine a few years back. As a service to passengers and anyone meeting them or dropping them off, Amsterdam Schiphol airport posts arrivals and departures on Teletext. One day they posted a departure by mistake, the aircraft had not actually moved from its stand. Yet they still had four people phone in to complain about the noise of it as it took off
Helinut:
That wouldn't be White Waltham, would it ? I do think their approach to complainants causes more problems than it really solves - "Give 'em an inch and they take a mile" springs to mind.
a) That their house price isn't adversly affected in and of itself by the fact that there's an airfield in close proximity. What's pulling it down is the fact that there are a number of people in the neighbourhood stridently claiming that the noise from the airfield is "soul-destroying".
b) That because they have complained, they are now legally bound when selling the property, to tell prospective purchasers that they find the noise intolerable. Which really will put the mockers on any sale.
My favourite noise complaint story was reported in 'Pilot' magazine a few years back. As a service to passengers and anyone meeting them or dropping them off, Amsterdam Schiphol airport posts arrivals and departures on Teletext. One day they posted a departure by mistake, the aircraft had not actually moved from its stand. Yet they still had four people phone in to complain about the noise of it as it took off
Helinut:
That wouldn't be White Waltham, would it ? I do think their approach to complainants causes more problems than it really solves - "Give 'em an inch and they take a mile" springs to mind.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Consequences to Actions....
We should keep a database of the complainers. If they or anyone in their family is ever seriously injured, the injured party would ride the distance in an ambulance over the bumpy roads.
When asked where the Airevac unit was, the simple response would be that we were simply following their wishes, did not want to disturb the neighbors.........
We should keep a database of the complainers. If they or anyone in their family is ever seriously injured, the injured party would ride the distance in an ambulance over the bumpy roads.
When asked where the Airevac unit was, the simple response would be that we were simply following their wishes, did not want to disturb the neighbors.........
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not always as it seems?
A few years back, I was transitting from point A to B in New South Wales. When I arrived at B, the airport operator told me to ring a particular person about a noise and low flying complaint possibly concerning my helicopter. I immediately called the complainer and was surprised to have the unhappy chappy tell me that as I had woken his wife and kids, he was about to lodge an official complaint with CASA and would be seeking to have me charged for unauthorised low flying as well.
Things quickly quientened down though when I suggested to him that a quick call from me to the local Police Department to report the acre of 'hootch' I had spotted growing on his property might draw an even quicker and more positive response,with far more dire consequences for him than he was ever likely to achieve against me. Needless to say, he never complained again.
(and as an aside, that afternoon on the way home, every plant had been uprooted and totally disappeared!!!
)
Things quickly quientened down though when I suggested to him that a quick call from me to the local Police Department to report the acre of 'hootch' I had spotted growing on his property might draw an even quicker and more positive response,with far more dire consequences for him than he was ever likely to achieve against me. Needless to say, he never complained again.
(and as an aside, that afternoon on the way home, every plant had been uprooted and totally disappeared!!!
)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: floating around
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of miles off the coast of Dublin there is a large Island with just one house on it, the SAR unit likes to train around the back of this island.
They started getting noise complaints from the lady of the house. A few days later they got a call out to airlift her son who had broken both his legs to bring to the hospital.
After all the patch up work was done in the hospital they offered to fly him back out to the island, understanding that a boat crossing with both legs broken would be painful even on relatively calm days.
A couple of days later they were working around the back of the same Island and what do ya know, a phone call from the mother again, complaining!
Just grin and Bear it!
They started getting noise complaints from the lady of the house. A few days later they got a call out to airlift her son who had broken both his legs to bring to the hospital.
After all the patch up work was done in the hospital they offered to fly him back out to the island, understanding that a boat crossing with both legs broken would be painful even on relatively calm days.
A couple of days later they were working around the back of the same Island and what do ya know, a phone call from the mother again, complaining!
Just grin and Bear it!
Last edited by Watchoutbelow; 9th Jan 2004 at 10:29.
PPRuNe Enigma
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helinut / RJ:
I was one of the folks kicked out of White Waltham when the heli operations were closed down
Quite a few of the houses backed onto the airfield. Funny how some people who complain about aircraft noise are quite happy to trundle a petrol lawnmower around their garden for hours on end
I was one of the folks kicked out of White Waltham when the heli operations were closed down
Quite a few of the houses backed onto the airfield. Funny how some people who complain about aircraft noise are quite happy to trundle a petrol lawnmower around their garden for hours on end
