Murray/Bodill Round the World
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Grainger - fair point mate! And, as Heliport pointed out, its Christmas, so it's time for an armistice.
Everybody have a good one, keep your hand on that collective, keep out of the clouds and hopefully we'll all be back in 2004.
Everybody have a good one, keep your hand on that collective, keep out of the clouds and hopefully we'll all be back in 2004.
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Interesting reading
Say this article in the Times yesterday - makes for some interesting reading...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFr...969681,00.html
(If that doesn't work try the timesonline website and then search for "Jennifer Murray")
It seems like CFIT. Did they really descend to attempt a landing in white out?
Hats off to Colin for saving their lives whilst suffering such awful injuries.
COD
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFr...969681,00.html
(If that doesn't work try the timesonline website and then search for "Jennifer Murray")
It seems like CFIT. Did they really descend to attempt a landing in white out?
Hats off to Colin for saving their lives whilst suffering such awful injuries.
COD
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............the article raises some interesting questions:
1.) why were they just wearing t-shirts? Doesn't exactly strike me as being prepared for something going wrong.
2.) obviously white-out is a common hazard in the Antartic. Had they adequately researched and prepared a course of action for this eventuality?
3.) The Times makes great play of the fact that Bodill did his rotary licence in a record six days. On the seventh day he did a conversion. Fifty-one hours flying it says, in seven days as well as fitting seven written exams and two flight tests in. Well, if what the journo has written is correct, that's over 7.2 hours flying per day, plus the exams. NOT THE BEST learning environment to leave a lasting foundation of skills from what I know of teaching people.
(I've edited a bit of a rant I had at the end of this, as reading it again, I thought it was less than objective, and I certainly do not mean to cause offence.) Just interested in peoples' opinions on the above.
1.) why were they just wearing t-shirts? Doesn't exactly strike me as being prepared for something going wrong.
2.) obviously white-out is a common hazard in the Antartic. Had they adequately researched and prepared a course of action for this eventuality?
3.) The Times makes great play of the fact that Bodill did his rotary licence in a record six days. On the seventh day he did a conversion. Fifty-one hours flying it says, in seven days as well as fitting seven written exams and two flight tests in. Well, if what the journo has written is correct, that's over 7.2 hours flying per day, plus the exams. NOT THE BEST learning environment to leave a lasting foundation of skills from what I know of teaching people.
(I've edited a bit of a rant I had at the end of this, as reading it again, I thought it was less than objective, and I certainly do not mean to cause offence.) Just interested in peoples' opinions on the above.
Last edited by Maximum; 22nd Jan 2004 at 01:05.
The Original Whirly
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Maximum,
Colin got his helicopter licence before he and Jennifer took part in the London to Sydney Air Race. So he's had a fair amount of helicopter flying experience since he got it, whether it was sensible at the time or not. And he was hardly the average flying student to start with. So...don't know the answer to your question, but the above needs to be borne in mind.
Colin got his helicopter licence before he and Jennifer took part in the London to Sydney Air Race. So he's had a fair amount of helicopter flying experience since he got it, whether it was sensible at the time or not. And he was hardly the average flying student to start with. So...don't know the answer to your question, but the above needs to be borne in mind.
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Whirly, I didn't know that, I'd have to say in fairness it does put a slightly different slant on my third question. Thanks for the info. If I'm being honest, I suppose I do think it's rather a spurious achievement, rather like the "how many hours to go solo" type thing. But that's just my opinion and probably not that relevant. However, as you point out, he would have gained good consolidation in the subsequent air race.
The questions of suitable clothing and actions on loss of ground contact still remain.
The questions of suitable clothing and actions on loss of ground contact still remain.
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1.) Just wearing t-shirts flying over that terrain was just plain stupid. Doesn't exactly strike me as being prepared for something going wrong either.
2.) Obviously white-out is a common hazard in the Antartic. Don't know if they'd adequately researched and prepared, but they didn't or couldn't cope with it when it happened. Had they any experience of it? London-Sydney was unlikely to include those conditions
3.) Two relatively inexperienced pilots, both PPLs without an IR between them, set off to fly over the South Pole. If they'd made it without incident it would have been lucky. They lucked out. The good thing is they lived to tell the tale.
2.) Obviously white-out is a common hazard in the Antartic. Don't know if they'd adequately researched and prepared, but they didn't or couldn't cope with it when it happened. Had they any experience of it? London-Sydney was unlikely to include those conditions
3.) Two relatively inexperienced pilots, both PPLs without an IR between them, set off to fly over the South Pole. If they'd made it without incident it would have been lucky. They lucked out. The good thing is they lived to tell the tale.
The Original Whirly
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Fron "Now Solo", Jennifer Murray's account of her flight round the world.....
"I reminded myself that I had already coped with more testing situations than your average pilot ever faces: tropical storms, sand-laden air, severe turbulence, and a series of mechanical problems like the failed magnetos. Still, I had not had the pleasure of a full-on white-out. I was going to have to wait a few days for the chance of that experience". (Page105, while flying through Northern Russia)
I tried to find anything about the white-out, but it's late, and a while since I read the book, and I can't find it.
Certainly, on the face of it, wearing T-shirts in Antarctica and trying to land in a white-out don't sound exactly sensible, to say the least! But journalists aren't renowned for their accuracy, so let's not judge till we have the complete facts of what happened.
"I reminded myself that I had already coped with more testing situations than your average pilot ever faces: tropical storms, sand-laden air, severe turbulence, and a series of mechanical problems like the failed magnetos. Still, I had not had the pleasure of a full-on white-out. I was going to have to wait a few days for the chance of that experience". (Page105, while flying through Northern Russia)
I tried to find anything about the white-out, but it's late, and a while since I read the book, and I can't find it.
Certainly, on the face of it, wearing T-shirts in Antarctica and trying to land in a white-out don't sound exactly sensible, to say the least! But journalists aren't renowned for their accuracy, so let's not judge till we have the complete facts of what happened.
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Whirlybird
Your loyalty to Jennifer Murray is admirable but the options seem to be mechanical failure, running out of gas or CFIT.
If it was mechanical I guess we'd have heard about it by now.
That leaves dry tanks or CFIT.
They'd not long taken off so unless there was a leak, they had gas.
That leaves CFIT which is what the journalist reports the pilot says.
What more facts do you need?
She says 'Still, I had not had the pleasure of a full-on white-out.'
You're a FI, do you think a PPL without an IR should be flying in conditions where a white-out is a real risk?
Your loyalty to Jennifer Murray is admirable but the options seem to be mechanical failure, running out of gas or CFIT.
If it was mechanical I guess we'd have heard about it by now.
That leaves dry tanks or CFIT.
They'd not long taken off so unless there was a leak, they had gas.
That leaves CFIT which is what the journalist reports the pilot says.
What more facts do you need?
She says 'Still, I had not had the pleasure of a full-on white-out.'
You're a FI, do you think a PPL without an IR should be flying in conditions where a white-out is a real risk?
The Original Whirly
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Bronx,
I'm not being loyal; I hardly know her. I'm just trying to be fair and objective.
There are PPLs and PPLs. If Jennifer has gained the experience to fly in such conditions without a formal IR qualification, then good luck to her. If she coped with white outs in the far north, then maybe she has. And maybe not. I think so far it's all unproven. I don't trust journalists to get things right, that's all.
I'm not being loyal; I hardly know her. I'm just trying to be fair and objective.
There are PPLs and PPLs. If Jennifer has gained the experience to fly in such conditions without a formal IR qualification, then good luck to her. If she coped with white outs in the far north, then maybe she has. And maybe not. I think so far it's all unproven. I don't trust journalists to get things right, that's all.
PPRuNe Enigma
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As I understand it they were trying to monitor the descent using a radar altimeter and contacted the surface unexpectedly when it was still reading approximately 140 feet - the misreading possibly being the result of the "ground" being ice rather than solid rock.
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couple of points......
Whirly, you say,
with all due respect, I think that's a dangerous road to go down - you're either IR qualified, or you're not, end of story. The accident reports are full of experienced VFR pilots who'd had the usual 5 hours instrument appreciation and thought they could hack real IFR. It's not that simple. You need to be rated and current.
Grainger, you quote the newspaper report
..........if that's what happened, I'm afraid in my book that kind of backs up what I'm saying.
Whirly, you say,
There are PPLs and PPLs. If Jennifer has gained the experience to fly in such conditions without a formal IR qualification, then good luck to her
Grainger, you quote the newspaper report
As I understand it they were trying to monitor the descent using a radar altimeter and contacted the surface unexpectedly when it was still reading approximately 140 feet
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It is not so much a case of having an IR. Lets face it an IR allows you to follow IFR rules which means being able to depart from an airport, transit to another airport, hold if necessary and then land following a published procedure. To be honest, I can not see an IR as being much use in Antarctica unless there are landing sites with procedures out there. What counts is the hours of spent in IMC. Unfortunately, you dont get the latter without the former!
It is interesting to listen to ex RN pilots and crewmen who have been trained to operate in arctic conditions. As far as I can see, the content of an IR does not prepare anyone for whiteout. In my opinion a wise pilot who wishes to operate an unusual role or environment would seek out someone to learn how to cope with that new role/environment. It is evident from the quotes in the report that they didn't do that, or if they did, they didn't act on the advice they were given. To descend into cloud to land is a recipe for disaster - the accident reports are littered with such accidents.
Alan Bristow started flying helicopters in the Antarctic 50 years ago. There is nothing new in flying in that environment. Then compare the aircraft he used (a Hiller and Dragonfly) and the aircraft used by Murray and Bodill (all singing and dancing Bell). I'm not that impressed by people who feel the need to prove themselves in such a way, but it is not to say that they should be stopped from doing it.
What does interest me on this thread is the difference in attitude between pilots. Some say push the limits and take risks, others say that it is crazy to attempt such a feat without the right training and experience. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two attitudes and GA / professional pilots? In any case, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots.......
It is interesting to listen to ex RN pilots and crewmen who have been trained to operate in arctic conditions. As far as I can see, the content of an IR does not prepare anyone for whiteout. In my opinion a wise pilot who wishes to operate an unusual role or environment would seek out someone to learn how to cope with that new role/environment. It is evident from the quotes in the report that they didn't do that, or if they did, they didn't act on the advice they were given. To descend into cloud to land is a recipe for disaster - the accident reports are littered with such accidents.
Alan Bristow started flying helicopters in the Antarctic 50 years ago. There is nothing new in flying in that environment. Then compare the aircraft he used (a Hiller and Dragonfly) and the aircraft used by Murray and Bodill (all singing and dancing Bell). I'm not that impressed by people who feel the need to prove themselves in such a way, but it is not to say that they should be stopped from doing it.
What does interest me on this thread is the difference in attitude between pilots. Some say push the limits and take risks, others say that it is crazy to attempt such a feat without the right training and experience. I wonder if there is a correlation between these two attitudes and GA / professional pilots? In any case, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots.......
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One of my previous companies I flew for have over 30 years experience in the Antarctic operating Hughes 500, Bell 206, AS 350 and S76. Two of the senior pilots had over 2000 hours in the Antarctic and plenty of line pilots with over 5 trips which can be 3 months to 6 months. I think that makes them reasonably experienced. Most did not have an instrument rating ( class 1 in OZ) but did some practise IF training up to night vfr standard ( class 4 in OZ ), so that they had a good working knowledge of what the AH was all about and also NDB and GPS homing.
The idea was they would know how to home to their destination, remembering that a magnetic compass was useless due to the massive variation so close to the magnetic pole. GPS was not available in my time and map reading was not too easy, so NDB homing was important. Also by having sufficient skill to use an AH, they could cope with limited IMC flight to get out of whiteout conditions by doing a 180, they were trained to avoid it in the first place.
Finally 2 helicopters generally went together with half loads so that if one went down, the other could pick them up. Also the crew always consisted of some experienced Antarctic pilots to help the new ones. For example I went down with a pilot on his 7th tour on my first and even though I was the chief pilot, he was the senior pilot for that tour because he had the experience and I didn't even though I had 12000 hours compared to his 6000.
I do not recall any cfit incidents in 30 years, so I wonder if we planned our trips better than these 2 adventurers who of course are perfectly entitled to attempt the trip.
The idea was they would know how to home to their destination, remembering that a magnetic compass was useless due to the massive variation so close to the magnetic pole. GPS was not available in my time and map reading was not too easy, so NDB homing was important. Also by having sufficient skill to use an AH, they could cope with limited IMC flight to get out of whiteout conditions by doing a 180, they were trained to avoid it in the first place.
Finally 2 helicopters generally went together with half loads so that if one went down, the other could pick them up. Also the crew always consisted of some experienced Antarctic pilots to help the new ones. For example I went down with a pilot on his 7th tour on my first and even though I was the chief pilot, he was the senior pilot for that tour because he had the experience and I didn't even though I had 12000 hours compared to his 6000.
I do not recall any cfit incidents in 30 years, so I wonder if we planned our trips better than these 2 adventurers who of course are perfectly entitled to attempt the trip.
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From BBC News
Polar helicopter flight still on
A grandmother who was injured when her helicopter crashed in Antarctica has vowed to complete her pole-to-pole journey.
Jennifer Murray dislocated her elbow while trying to fly from the South Pole to the North Pole.
The 63-year-old from Frome, Somerset, says she and co-pilot, Colin Bodill, 53, who fractured a vertebra in the crash, are both "raring to go".
"We are not the type of people to be put off easily," she said.
"We understand what went wrong and we are older and wiser now."
The pair, who have nearly recovered from their injuries, intend to leave for the North Pole at the beginning of 2005.
Mrs Murray said: "Colin would like to do the whole thing again and go into Antarctica once more.
Wrecked helicopter
"Then we would have a chance at breaking the record. I need a little more convincing of that yet."
Their Bell 407 helicopter went down in atrocious weather crashing in frozen wastes 120 miles north of Patriot Hills, a base on the northern section of the Ronne Ice Shelf in western Antarctica.
Despite his injuries and battling gale-force winds and minus 40C temperatures, Mr Bodill from Nottingham clambered out of the wrecked helicopter and wrapped his stricken co-pilot in a sleeping bag before setting up camp while waiting for rescuers.
They were eventually saved when a pilot from Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions flying a Twin Otter plane picked them up and flew them to the base at Patriot Hills.
A grandmother who was injured when her helicopter crashed in Antarctica has vowed to complete her pole-to-pole journey.
Jennifer Murray dislocated her elbow while trying to fly from the South Pole to the North Pole.
The 63-year-old from Frome, Somerset, says she and co-pilot, Colin Bodill, 53, who fractured a vertebra in the crash, are both "raring to go".
"We are not the type of people to be put off easily," she said.
"We understand what went wrong and we are older and wiser now."
The pair, who have nearly recovered from their injuries, intend to leave for the North Pole at the beginning of 2005.
Mrs Murray said: "Colin would like to do the whole thing again and go into Antarctica once more.
Wrecked helicopter
"Then we would have a chance at breaking the record. I need a little more convincing of that yet."
Their Bell 407 helicopter went down in atrocious weather crashing in frozen wastes 120 miles north of Patriot Hills, a base on the northern section of the Ronne Ice Shelf in western Antarctica.
Despite his injuries and battling gale-force winds and minus 40C temperatures, Mr Bodill from Nottingham clambered out of the wrecked helicopter and wrapped his stricken co-pilot in a sleeping bag before setting up camp while waiting for rescuers.
They were eventually saved when a pilot from Antarctic Logistics and Expeditions flying a Twin Otter plane picked them up and flew them to the base at Patriot Hills.
