Curious - UK police ops
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PANews
I'm sure that if Cambridgeshire Police have OK'd this internally, they will "buy dollars" now to preserve the exchange rate - they may actually make some money out of just that transation given the current rate.
However, your "cheap as chips" comments need expanding further. It suggests that MD are dumping aircraft on the market in desparation to get some cash? Why would they need to do that - are you suggesting the Dutch contract is in serious jeopardy and that MD now need to sell 8 white-tails into the market? I note that the new South Yorkshire aircraft was a serial number originally allocated to the Dutch contract, but that does not always mean much as MSNs do change "on the line" prior to delivery.
Just how bad is the MD situation? Redundancies? How many more white tails? If you check their boss's predications at HAI - (see here ), he predicted all the 8 Dutch ones delivered by year end, also 5 to Germany (the 3rd delivered last week) and 10 600Ns to Turkey (status anyone?).
Remember too that there's an EMS sale to Northumbria announced at Helitech - wonder what they will make of all this?
BTW, did you really mean "Vertitair"....? it reminded me of S****horpe...............
ppheli
PS
wow, that was clever of PPRUNE! In that last sentence, I put the name of a Yorkshire coastal town and PPRUNE functionality converted it to asterisks! It sort of helps to prove my little jest rather nicely....
I'm sure that if Cambridgeshire Police have OK'd this internally, they will "buy dollars" now to preserve the exchange rate - they may actually make some money out of just that transation given the current rate.
However, your "cheap as chips" comments need expanding further. It suggests that MD are dumping aircraft on the market in desparation to get some cash? Why would they need to do that - are you suggesting the Dutch contract is in serious jeopardy and that MD now need to sell 8 white-tails into the market? I note that the new South Yorkshire aircraft was a serial number originally allocated to the Dutch contract, but that does not always mean much as MSNs do change "on the line" prior to delivery.
Just how bad is the MD situation? Redundancies? How many more white tails? If you check their boss's predications at HAI - (see here ), he predicted all the 8 Dutch ones delivered by year end, also 5 to Germany (the 3rd delivered last week) and 10 600Ns to Turkey (status anyone?).
Remember too that there's an EMS sale to Northumbria announced at Helitech - wonder what they will make of all this?
BTW, did you really mean "Vertitair"....? it reminded me of S****horpe...............
ppheli
PS
wow, that was clever of PPRUNE! In that last sentence, I put the name of a Yorkshire coastal town and PPRUNE functionality converted it to asterisks! It sort of helps to prove my little jest rather nicely....
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
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ppheli,
Which coast of Yorkshire is Sc*nthorpe on?
It's not far from the Isle of Axholme, I'll grant you that, but p'raps the tide just went out a long way last time I looked
Which coast of Yorkshire is Sc*nthorpe on?
It's not far from the Isle of Axholme, I'll grant you that, but p'raps the tide just went out a long way last time I looked
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I'm sure that if you were flying at 3000' over this town and CAVOK, you could see the coast... which you couldn't from where I am, so that makes it near(er) the coast than me. OK, so my geography north of the Midlands needs a bit of brushing up. 
It reminds me that the southerly force area that includes the "Isle of Purbeck" is also looking at getting a "cheap as chips" MD
It reminds me that the southerly force area that includes the "Isle of Purbeck" is also looking at getting a "cheap as chips" MD
Avoid imitations
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ppheli,
I once stayed in a hotel with a so-called "sea view" like that....
Testing testing: S****horpe, Sconthorphe, Scvnthorpe ....
got it!
I once stayed in a hotel with a so-called "sea view" like that....
Testing testing: S****horpe, Sconthorphe, Scvnthorpe ....
got it!
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Who F,
trying to answer your questions:
Yep, the CAA have generated a change to the Police Air Operations Manual (that we all have to comply with). Police pilots generally don't have to be IR, but we all did have to do IF training. As a result of the Strathclyde accident (and one or two others) the amount of IF training is to be increased. The CAA has pledged that we won't have to go IR "for at least 3 years". the cynics amongst us, used to politicians pronouncements, might regard that as a schedule by another name.
Some current UK police helicopters are not IFR certified. IFR certification for the UK is more onerous than for some places.
The other big problem to proper IFR is fuel reserves - it is a problem for any IFR helicopter operation, but especially for police aircraft because the mission equipment is so heavy.
[Before someone accuses me of being incorrect, there is one police helicopter unit that does operate IFR, with IR pilots]
NVG - at the moment there is one unit that uses NVG for pilots, one that uses them for observers. Several more are in the process of moving to NVG. The CAA stance has changed a bit. They seem to be much more keen on them, than previously.
There are big practical difficulties to going IFR in some cases in the UK. Many Units operate in areas with little or no IFR letdowns (we aren't allowed to use GPS). Also police ops are fundamentally VMC, visual contact.
However, we do need the skills, currency, equipment, fuel etc. to be able to cope if we go inadvertent at night...........
trying to answer your questions:
Yep, the CAA have generated a change to the Police Air Operations Manual (that we all have to comply with). Police pilots generally don't have to be IR, but we all did have to do IF training. As a result of the Strathclyde accident (and one or two others) the amount of IF training is to be increased. The CAA has pledged that we won't have to go IR "for at least 3 years". the cynics amongst us, used to politicians pronouncements, might regard that as a schedule by another name.
Some current UK police helicopters are not IFR certified. IFR certification for the UK is more onerous than for some places.
The other big problem to proper IFR is fuel reserves - it is a problem for any IFR helicopter operation, but especially for police aircraft because the mission equipment is so heavy.
[Before someone accuses me of being incorrect, there is one police helicopter unit that does operate IFR, with IR pilots]
NVG - at the moment there is one unit that uses NVG for pilots, one that uses them for observers. Several more are in the process of moving to NVG. The CAA stance has changed a bit. They seem to be much more keen on them, than previously.
There are big practical difficulties to going IFR in some cases in the UK. Many Units operate in areas with little or no IFR letdowns (we aren't allowed to use GPS). Also police ops are fundamentally VMC, visual contact.
However, we do need the skills, currency, equipment, fuel etc. to be able to cope if we go inadvertent at night...........
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Sorry for joining this thread a little late (and apologies if I have missed the real thrust), but it has always amazed me that people think the only time you need to be skilled, AND current to fly on instruments is when you are in cloud!!
Try manouvering on a dark night over an unpopulated area at (relatively) low level and low speed, then throw in a few nearby hills!!
The use of nvgs may help, but conversely it INCREASES the chances of inadvertent imc!
Fly safe!
Try manouvering on a dark night over an unpopulated area at (relatively) low level and low speed, then throw in a few nearby hills!!
The use of nvgs may help, but conversely it INCREASES the chances of inadvertent imc!
Fly safe!
Cyclic: BO105 O.O.D. by 2005/6 for night IFR ops. (No ht or Hdg hold). O.O.D. for HEMS landing performance to public interest sites...was April 2004, then 2005, now currently 2008 as the Germans fight for another delay!!
So many other juicy bits to respond to:
Pilot IR
MD900 serviceability
EC135 Vs MD900 flight in IMC
Advantages of NVG's
Filing IFR Vs inadvertent IIMC
Police IFR ops.
But I can't be a**ed at this time of night
So many other juicy bits to respond to:
Pilot IR
MD900 serviceability
EC135 Vs MD900 flight in IMC
Advantages of NVG's
Filing IFR Vs inadvertent IIMC
Police IFR ops.
But I can't be a**ed at this time of night
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
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flungdung,
I think that (our) CAA attitude to GPS approaches is as close to "over my dead body" as makes no difference - the only pronouncements from them are to say that GPS will never be used as an approach navaid in the UK. I think they suffer from a peculiarly selective form of tunnel vision, so that they are unable to see good practice in other countries, UNLESS it would involve less aviation in the UK.
I believe that we use AS355(a few left) EC135(lots) MD902(lots) A109E(1) BK117(1), and probably occasional BO105 in the UK.
It is the Devon & Cornwall BK117 that is operated IFR/instrument rated. It would be very difficult to get any of the others to have IFR fuel reserves in police role, as yoou suggest.
P.S. Please can I move somewhere sensible where the regulator's goal is not to stop aviation??
I think that (our) CAA attitude to GPS approaches is as close to "over my dead body" as makes no difference - the only pronouncements from them are to say that GPS will never be used as an approach navaid in the UK. I think they suffer from a peculiarly selective form of tunnel vision, so that they are unable to see good practice in other countries, UNLESS it would involve less aviation in the UK.
I believe that we use AS355(a few left) EC135(lots) MD902(lots) A109E(1) BK117(1), and probably occasional BO105 in the UK.
It is the Devon & Cornwall BK117 that is operated IFR/instrument rated. It would be very difficult to get any of the others to have IFR fuel reserves in police role, as yoou suggest.
P.S. Please can I move somewhere sensible where the regulator's goal is not to stop aviation??
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to bring this threead back to life, and in answer to the original question Veritairs BO105 is still in the white, green and red livery and has never been in police livery. it is used as back up for South and East Wales ASU and as Primary Aircraft for British Transport Police. BTP are currently working with Network Rail to secure funding for a year round ASU, rather then the present set up which is about 100 days per year. the BO105 is used rather than the AS355 as the aircraft more often than not has to land in small areas to enable the Police Observer to respond to incidents, such as Fatalities on the railway. the BO105 is much better at helipad T/O than the 355 which tends to be a sod to get airbourne on a warm day.
hope this clears up any confusion, but as for the origin of the police marked BO105 .... ????
hope this clears up any confusion, but as for the origin of the police marked BO105 .... ????
