OK, what caused this accident? (Video)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on you guys, I know the short answer is he was stupid.
But why didn't the tow work? Helos have towed safely - check out the latest picture in the photo thread.
What actually caused the helo to drop into the water?
Joe Z.
But why didn't the tow work? Helos have towed safely - check out the latest picture in the photo thread.
What actually caused the helo to drop into the water?
Joe Z.
We've been over this before. Looks like neither of the geniusi in the 206 put much thought into what they were doing, and were obviously in one heck of a rush for some reason.
We see the guy in the left seat hand one end of the rope to someone in the boat. We do not know where the other end of the rope is attached to, but we can guess that it's not the cargo hook, as the aircraft does not appear to be so equipped. That leaves either the left skid/crosstube, or perhaps the left-side door post (and then out over the left skid). Whatever. As the pilot pulls power to start the tow, the inevitable happens.
Looks to me like the guy in the right-front seat was horribly a inexperienced helicopter pilot with an incredible lack of talent (I wonder if he posts on PPRuNe?).
Odd though that the narrator of the clip should refer to a 206B as a "million-dollar helicopter." If that's what people think about a lowly JetRanger, imagine what they think an S-76 costs!
We see the guy in the left seat hand one end of the rope to someone in the boat. We do not know where the other end of the rope is attached to, but we can guess that it's not the cargo hook, as the aircraft does not appear to be so equipped. That leaves either the left skid/crosstube, or perhaps the left-side door post (and then out over the left skid). Whatever. As the pilot pulls power to start the tow, the inevitable happens.
Looks to me like the guy in the right-front seat was horribly a inexperienced helicopter pilot with an incredible lack of talent (I wonder if he posts on PPRuNe?).
Odd though that the narrator of the clip should refer to a 206B as a "million-dollar helicopter." If that's what people think about a lowly JetRanger, imagine what they think an S-76 costs!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"million-dollar helicopter" : he's squawking about Oz dollars. A 206 with the Oz import duty is about a mill.
This video should be compulsory for every pilot - just as they pass their flight test they should be made to watch this. And then again at 50,100,150 hrs etc.
In fact, it should be fed to the gps screen of every helicopter at start-up!
This video should be compulsory for every pilot - just as they pass their flight test they should be made to watch this. And then again at 50,100,150 hrs etc.
In fact, it should be fed to the gps screen of every helicopter at start-up!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: high wycombe
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is one of the daftest rescue attempts I have ever seen. As pullning the power on requires left pedal anyway and the machnie is being dragged to the left by the tow also, is it not more likely he ran out of tail rotor pitch rather than cyclic and was unable to prevent it spinning? The machine appears to yaw to the left before being pulled in by the tension in the rope and the pilot appears to be unable to prevent it.
Reminds me of the famous helicopter rescue attempt in the film Jaws 2.
Reminds me of the famous helicopter rescue attempt in the film Jaws 2.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Barannfin.
Perhaps he ran out of cyclic
Too right! The drag load of the heavy virtually stationary boat was acting through the front port skid attachment. This would have applied a huge nose down pitching moment. To be safe he needed to take up the slack nice and gradually then when he felt the ONSET of the (inevitable) nose down trim change he should have countered that with aft cyclic, maintained his attitude and waited for the boat to gradually start to move without pulling any more collective and generating even more nose down trim change. Once he had got the ensemble drifting forward nicely he could have gradually increased power within his ability to hold the nose down trim with say one third back cyclic.
But he knows all that now!
Perhaps he ran out of cyclic
Too right! The drag load of the heavy virtually stationary boat was acting through the front port skid attachment. This would have applied a huge nose down pitching moment. To be safe he needed to take up the slack nice and gradually then when he felt the ONSET of the (inevitable) nose down trim change he should have countered that with aft cyclic, maintained his attitude and waited for the boat to gradually start to move without pulling any more collective and generating even more nose down trim change. Once he had got the ensemble drifting forward nicely he could have gradually increased power within his ability to hold the nose down trim with say one third back cyclic.
But he knows all that now!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John Farley
Pleased to see you posting in this forum John.
Quite a few contributors are rotary and fixed-wing qualified, but we don't get many f/w-only pilots. That said, you do have a lot of hovering time.
Tudor Owen
Pleased to see you posting in this forum John.
Quite a few contributors are rotary and fixed-wing qualified, but we don't get many f/w-only pilots. That said, you do have a lot of hovering time.
Tudor Owen
It looks as though the 206 is fitted wiv an `ook, or certainly something where the `ook would be.So, he`s actually run out of everything, cyclic, yaw, and power, and as John says, if only they`d have thought about it, even looped the rope around the cabin floor, and out between the skids, and then eased off gently, they all might have been home and "dry...
John, were you around when there were trials at RAE/AAEE towing a minesweeper( well, not actually there, but you know what I mean)?
Syc..
PS. and no,I don`t think a Lynx would`ve` been able to tow the frigate off the rocks!!
John, were you around when there were trials at RAE/AAEE towing a minesweeper( well, not actually there, but you know what I mean)?
Syc..
PS. and no,I don`t think a Lynx would`ve` been able to tow the frigate off the rocks!!
******!
Bronx: I reckon the answer to your question has two possible answers but the video is not clear enough to be able to determine which.
Perhaps the rope is connected correctly to the cargo hook (hook looks fitted in the video I watched ), but then instead of taking the tension slowly, the pilot seems to nose over and begin to pull. As he is not over the top of the load when he begins to pull, it is just as if he had snagged his line in forward flight, ie the aircraft begins to pitch downwards, and the rope pulls him down. There is a momentary cause for misguided joy by the pilot as the boat overcomes its inertia and begins to move, but even though he is now accelerating well, he is still being pulled down. As this realisation comes to him, he probably pulls all the power he has in the hope of missing the water and this has three immediate effects: he gets pulled down faster, he runs out of left pedal (begins turning to the right), and the passenger notices a strange poo smell coming from the pilot.
The other would be that the rope was around the left skid, as several have said above. If this was the case, I am very suprised that the aircraft did not bank far more harshly to the left and continue to accelerate in its left rolling moment all the way to the water, a la dynamic rollover. I say "suprised" because I had always imagined it would be far more violent that the video.
Wonder if he tried a release?
Bronx: I reckon the answer to your question has two possible answers but the video is not clear enough to be able to determine which.
Perhaps the rope is connected correctly to the cargo hook (hook looks fitted in the video I watched ), but then instead of taking the tension slowly, the pilot seems to nose over and begin to pull. As he is not over the top of the load when he begins to pull, it is just as if he had snagged his line in forward flight, ie the aircraft begins to pitch downwards, and the rope pulls him down. There is a momentary cause for misguided joy by the pilot as the boat overcomes its inertia and begins to move, but even though he is now accelerating well, he is still being pulled down. As this realisation comes to him, he probably pulls all the power he has in the hope of missing the water and this has three immediate effects: he gets pulled down faster, he runs out of left pedal (begins turning to the right), and the passenger notices a strange poo smell coming from the pilot.
The other would be that the rope was around the left skid, as several have said above. If this was the case, I am very suprised that the aircraft did not bank far more harshly to the left and continue to accelerate in its left rolling moment all the way to the water, a la dynamic rollover. I say "suprised" because I had always imagined it would be far more violent that the video.
Wonder if he tried a release?
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Chichester West Sussex UK
Age: 91
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying Lawyer
Thanks, I did have the privilege of flying choppers a little for the boffins at Bedford. One day I lost a small pointed and dense underslung instrumented load from a Whirlwind 7 when the parachute intended to float it down candled. It embedded itself deep in a ploughed field, but the parachute was visible above the surface. To save my team a lot of shovel and spade work I was talked into landing alongside, fixing the cable to the chopper and trying to pull it all out. It was my first experience of tethered hovering and like a lot of first experiences it did not go too well. I got into a very nasty lateral oscillation as I pulled. When in a chopper close to the surface there is an instinctive desire to pull more power as a general solution to problems. In my case (as with the boat tow case) this was actually only going to make matters worse as you have to reduce power to get rid of the line tension which is the root cause of the problem. And that is not instinctive. I did not do it then either, but was fortunate to have the services of a cable cutter.
The only way to really learn so many things in aviation is to make a mistake. The trick is to survive the mistake....
Thanks, I did have the privilege of flying choppers a little for the boffins at Bedford. One day I lost a small pointed and dense underslung instrumented load from a Whirlwind 7 when the parachute intended to float it down candled. It embedded itself deep in a ploughed field, but the parachute was visible above the surface. To save my team a lot of shovel and spade work I was talked into landing alongside, fixing the cable to the chopper and trying to pull it all out. It was my first experience of tethered hovering and like a lot of first experiences it did not go too well. I got into a very nasty lateral oscillation as I pulled. When in a chopper close to the surface there is an instinctive desire to pull more power as a general solution to problems. In my case (as with the boat tow case) this was actually only going to make matters worse as you have to reduce power to get rid of the line tension which is the root cause of the problem. And that is not instinctive. I did not do it then either, but was fortunate to have the services of a cable cutter.
The only way to really learn so many things in aviation is to make a mistake. The trick is to survive the mistake....
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just in case any of our younger or non-UK members didn't understand why Flying Lawyer was teasing John Farley about hovering ……….
John is a distinguished test pilot. He first flew the P.1127 (fore-runner of the Harrier) in 1964 while at the Royal Aircraft Establishment and spent 19 years of his career contributing to the development of the Harrier.
After retiring as Chief Test Pilot BAe Dunsfold, he spent five years as Manager of Dunsfold and a further two as Special Operations Manager at BAe Kingston.
If anyone would like to read about hovering a fixed-wing, this is a link to the text of a lecture John delivered to the Royal Aeronautical Society in May 2000:
The Harrier Development Story - by John Farley OBE AFC CEng
John is a distinguished test pilot. He first flew the P.1127 (fore-runner of the Harrier) in 1964 while at the Royal Aircraft Establishment and spent 19 years of his career contributing to the development of the Harrier.
After retiring as Chief Test Pilot BAe Dunsfold, he spent five years as Manager of Dunsfold and a further two as Special Operations Manager at BAe Kingston.
If anyone would like to read about hovering a fixed-wing, this is a link to the text of a lecture John delivered to the Royal Aeronautical Society in May 2000:
The Harrier Development Story - by John Farley OBE AFC CEng
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Scotland
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you think that this guy qualifies for Numpty of the year what about the two Jetrangers joined together by tow rope from Hook point to hook point so a stunt man could walk from one A/C to another, apparently the producers of the show had approached several operators and told in no uncertain mannor where to stick thier Idea, exept these two numpties decided to do it.
Guess what happened whet they lifted off.
I will try and find the photo but if any one else has a link it would be appreciated
Guess what happened whet they lifted off.
I will try and find the photo but if any one else has a link it would be appreciated
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ON A HILL
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, what caused this accident? (Video)
I have just conducted an experiment to determine why the heli rolled over. I used one dog, one collar, one lead. I attatched collar to dogs neck to represent the place in which the rope was tied to the helicopter. I ran lead from collar around left side of dog and under his belly, leaving remainder of lead draped along floor behind dog. Threw large bone in front of dog. As he accelerated away (as per helicopter), stood on lead. Result. Dog goes arse over tit just the same as the helicopter. Simple