Mountain Flying

[GeorgeMandes]

True, all the operators you mentioned have pilots with a wealth of mountain experience, but how many of them have had training other than that which is required by the CPL syllabus? The training they've received is through experience.

To that point, a friend Jeff Cooper, once commented that there are three things all men think they are expert in, by virtue of being born male, two of which are shooting and driving. For helicopter pilots, I would add a fourth, and that is mountain flying. I routinely ask pilots about their mountain flying experience and knowledge, and always hear they understand mountain flying based on, for example, their military experience, the FAA syllabus, and having flown some in the mountains. Prior to taking the Canadian Helicopters full mountain course, I had taken a number of fixed wing mountain courses, flown extensively in the mountains of the west and Alaska, and considered myself somewhat experienced in mountain flying. After being exposed to the mountain course in Penticton at Canadian Helicopters, I was absolutely blown away by what they teach and how much further developed it is than anything else I had been exposed to. I guess that isn't surprising when you realize they have been developing this program over about fifty years and essentially all they do in Penticton is teach mountain flying.

[Aucky]

Suggestions for JAA Mountain Training?

Can anyone suggest the best (if there is a "best") country/companies for mountain training on a JAA license (R44/B206)? I know many companies offer mountain training in europe and the states, but am only aware of the Swiss providing a 'Mountain Rating' due to the local requirement to have one for various tasks. I'm obviously more interested in the training than the 'rating' as most places don't require a one, but if a 'rating' of sorts would be the most comprehensive training and open opportunities for other trips then why not...

I'm hoping to fly down to Geneva, Albertville, Courchevel & Megeve soon in a 44 and have done some training in early 2004 in the Drakensbergs, but that was a while back and the most adventurous mountains I have encountered since then are the hills of Snowdon I only plan to venture around Chamonix altiport and Mont Blanc with an experienced mountain pilot this time around, but I would like to become much more proficient in this skill.

Also does anyone know any useful resources for 'rule of thumb', or theoretical tuition regarding mountain flight? I heard it mentioned that in less than 20kts wind your unlikely to get mountain waves or serious down draughting air, but that clear blue skies can lull one into a false sense of security if the winds up, due to clear air turbulence, mountain waves & downdraughts... (Obviously there are the usual dangers of limited power/over pitch etc)

Any input would be much appreciated, even if it's simply the name of a book that should not be missed

Thanks

[What Limits]

Canadian Helicopters Mountain Course

over here regarded as one of the best.

Nothing to do with me btw.

[Bertie Thruster]

Also does anyone know any useful resources for 'rule of thumb' regarding mountain flight?

Only do it if you are getting paid to do it.

[[email protected]]

Also does anyone know any useful resources for 'rule of thumb', or theoretical tuition regarding mountain flight?

Yes, - don't do it in a Robinson

[toptobottom]

Yes, - don't do it in a Robinson

I think Crab's tongue is firmly in his cheek... I regularly fly in the mountains in the UK and abroad in R44s without issue, as do many on here. This is definitely worth reading.

TTB

[pdoyle]

that you joe

[Flying Binghi]

I regularly fly in the mountains in the UK and abroad in R44s without issue

...so far.





.

[toptobottom]

So far, for over 10 years. What could possibly go wrong?!

[Rotorbee]

Mountain Flying in the UK ... yeah right...

Oh, yes, mountain flying in the UK. You must be kidding.
If I get that right, your highest mountain is 1344m. In Switzerland only landings above 1100m qualify as mountain landings and that is still pretty low, even for a Robi or a Schweizer/Hughes.
For the Robinson haters. I have flown quite a bit with Robinsons in the mountains. It isn't a problem, as long as you know what you are doing. Stay within the limits, which is the same for any helicopter. In a Robi you can still hover in Big Bear on a warm day with almost half the fuel and two on board.
Ok, that was with an Alpha. Wasn't as heavy as the Beta.
The R22 is certainly more difficult to control in windy situations, but in that case you just don't go. But they are not unsafe.
Sure, if you want to be working comfortable in the mountains, there is no way around a Lama or a B3.

[toptobottom]

I was waiting for that one! . Admittedly, there won't be the DA challenges of flying high in Switzerland (for example), but a gusting 45kt wind will still get your attention, even in the Welsh mountains - and especially in a 44

[paco]

Yes, try flying from Fort William to Glasgow (through Glencoe and past Black Mountain) in a 55 kt wind in a 206. The wind round pointy bits of ground still provides the same challenges at whatever height!

However, real mountain flying, I grant you, is when you have to get into the landing spot with no collective or throttle left.

Phil

[SilsoeSid]

Oh, yes, mountain flying in the UK. You must be kidding.
If I get that right, your highest mountain is 1344m. In Switzerland only landings above 1100m qualify as mountain landings and that is still pretty low, even for a Robi or a Schweizer/Hughes.

So our highest mountain is over-qualified then

SS
3,718 m - Lake Alice, Mt Kenya - Gazelle
3,434 m - Grossglockner - Alouette III
2,160 m - Saillagouse - Lynx 7

[toptobottom]

Windy Welsh mountains in a R44. Here we have 194mph (top right) or 169kts. R44 cruise is, say 112kts, so 57kt tailwind... throw in to some tall pointy bits to turb things up a bit, with maybe some funnelling, a few vortices and downdraughts and hang on tight

[newfieboy]

Ha ha.......try the backside of the Rocks in Canada on a longline doing siesmic............ or bird towing in the coastal ranges in Labrador...... yep they are real mountains........

[BH06L3]

Those R44's are pretty quick. Have never flown one but I remember in the mountains being about 5 min. back from a heliport and beside me an R44. I thought I was going to be #1. By the time I got back to the heliport in the 206 the R44 was already shut down (blades still turning). Although he was light on fuel and had only one passenger. My personal record in the 206L3 was about 188mph GS. And with TC test pilot on a test flight in a dive we got the AS350 up to 164Kts IAS. That was interesting, just don't pull out to quick at the bottom.

Back on topic Canadian Helicopters is one of the best mountain training schools out there, but possibly one of the most expensive as well. I guess you get what you pay for. However there are a lot of decent training schools offering mountain courses in Canada. But my opinion is unless you fly for fun in the mountians and have a bag full of cash don't pay for it. I know lots of pilots who paid for the mountain course hoping to find work who never found work in the mountains. If a company likes you and needs you, then they will pay for it.

[SilsoeSid]

And with TC test pilot on a test flight in a dive we got the AS350 up to 164Kts IAS.

Just to prove my ignorance, test flight, passenger, exceeding VNE, did you wear parachutes?

[BH06L3]

For the legalities it was required that a company pilot accompanies the Test Pilot in this situation. As I am sure Transport Canada would not break there own rules.

[Crome Dome]

Lynx Flight at Sallagouse.

Sorry bit of a tangent to your threads but I am interested in some information about a lynx crash that happened in sallagouse in 1986. Does anyone have any info.....?????

[MightyGem]

Does anyone have any info.....?????

Why? It crashed, two experienced pilots died. It could have been avoided. Someone on this site:
Aviation
may be willing to elaborate. Or, maybe not.