Parachute for Choppers!!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm not sure much is in the public domain on that incident (although I seem to remember a good write up in Mod(PE)'s, "feedback" circa 1998), but it happened just as it was being proposed to remove the requirement for flight test crews in helos to carry parachutes - since nobody had ever used them. That particular proposal has, unsurprisingly, not seen the light of day since.

You were probably looking for something more frivolous, but either a "crew" or "department" are the usual collective nouns for TPs and FTEs.

G

[Lu Zuckerman]

Another good man bites the dust....

Apparently, Nick L knows test pilots who've bailed out of uncontrollable machines...

Lu Zuckerman also knows a test pilot that bailed out from a helicopter. He was a Sikorsky test pilot and his name was Obie Blanchard. He didn't survive as he got caught in the spinning rotors when the falling helicoter flew into his shroud lines.

[Dave_Jackson]

The parachute didn't work in another instance. The mechanic bail out but it was fatal for the test pilot, Dave Driskill, America’s first licensed helicopter pilot. It was also fatal for the Kellett helicopter company which "never recovered from the dire financial straits caused by the crash."

Intermeshing - Kellett XR-8 & XR-10

[ShyTorque]

Baling out? Used to be an RAF requirement to carry chutes in helis if going above a certain altitude (10,000ft?) - they once suffered a catastrophic fire in a helicopter (magnesium skinned Wessex I think it was) that burned out before it landed in autorotation.

However, I went completely off the idea of baling out as soon as I read the abandonment drill in the Flight Reference Cards for the Whirlwind 10.

There was a caveat at the bottom of the same FRC page which said words to the effect that "Warning: objects jettisoned from the aircraft in autorotative flight may contact the main rotor blades".

[NickLappos]

Doesn't there come a point where you stay home if you can't trust the primary structure of your flying machine?

Stated another way:

Assuming that the parachute for the aircraft weighs 150 lbs (a real challenge) how much stronger and safer would the rotor be if you put that weight into the helicopter to make it stronger and safer to begin with?

Or a third way, If the spare tire in your car cost you a passenger would you carry one?

[BoeingMEL]

Someone's having a laugh!

Speaking with some humilty but with a few thousand hours of rotary time (including poxy piston jobs) and several hundred para-jumps, this is a dozy idea..... always has been and always will be. On the other hand, why not secure marshmallows to the skids to soften the impact of EOLs? Sorry..... someone's having a laugh! bm

[Reefdog]

WHAT A CRAZY IDEA

SPEAKING AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS SUCCESSFULLY AUTOED A 206 AFTER ENGINE FAILURE WITH A 100' LINE ON WITH 400KGS OF WATER IN IT...... GIVE ME AUTO ANY TIME
YOU HAVE FULL CONTROL EVEN AT 85% ROTOR RPM

MAN DOES THAT RRPM DROP QUICK...........................

[Dave_Jackson]

Nick,

The start of your post make good sense, but this last sentence is a little worrying.

"Or a third way, If the spare tire in your car cost you a passenger would you carry one?"

You're not suggesting that the extra passenger could be tied around the wheel rim, if the tire fails.

Are you .



Dave

[Lu Zuckerman]

I gave this a lot of thought..

To: Dave Jackson

It all depends on the urgency of the trip and who the passenger is.

[Dave_Jackson]

US Patent Office

Emergency parachute system for helicopters

Published Application 20050087652, Dated April 28, 2005

[ConwayB]

Parachute for helos?

I seem to recall a trial for ejection seats for helicopters back in the '70s. The rotorhead was designed with explosive charges on the blade roots to shed the blades in unison at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions This was for a four bladed rotor with blades 1 and 3 being shed and then 2 and 4 as soon as they reached the same point.

Once all the blades were gone and without the pesky rotor disk ready to "CHOPPER" your head off, the Martin Baker ejection seat did its job just like in planks. I would guess that the same system, if it was plausible and viable, could be used... by why bother?

In my VERY humble opinion and being a Chinook driver with a number of parachute jumps under my belt, I'd only bale out of a Chook if I could take a very fast running jump down the cabin and dive off the ramp past the aft rotor...

Otherwise my choice is to take the baby all the way to the ground.

Here's hoping we are never in a situation where we are thinking that a parachute would have been a good idea.

CB

[tecpilot]

Apparently, Nick L knows test pilots who've bailed out of uncontrollable machines...

I seem to remember a "bunch" of FTEs and TPs bailing out from one of the prototype Merlins that crapped itself at altitude - all survived

He was a Sikorsky test pilot and his name was Obie Blanchard. He didn't survive as he got caught in the spinning rotors when the falling helicoter flew into his shroud lines.

Up to the reunification in the East German Airforce all helicopterpilots weared chutes and all pilots performed a complete chute training each year including jumps from helicopters or planes. As argumentation was said an increased safety on IFR flights and in case of technical problems with the controls, hydraulics, blade or gearboxfailure or fire on board.

In 1976 a helicopter acted in 1000ft as a training target to fighterjets. One of the jetjockeys was really hot and dropped below the safety distance and height to the helicopter. Short a midair with 2 chutes on the blue sky and a big firework on the ground from the downed and burning jet. On one chute was the ace and on the other the helicopter PIC. The helicopter was hitted on the main rotorblades and lost some outer bladeparts. The normal result was a tumbling and heavy vibrating chopper, in deep trouble to disintegrate complete in the air. The PIC ordered the crew to an immediate rescue parachute jump, dropped his sidedoor and out he was. The copilot dropped also his door and was going to jump, but in this moment he was gripped by the engineer. This SOB was searching for his chute because he feeled to be on a pleasure flight and wasn't linked to his chute, again orders. Thats more comfortable! The copilot was able to sail down the fluttering and nearly uncontrollable ship to mother earth in one piece but that was changed in several loops on the ground. All 4 soldiers survived only minor injured! Against rumours the fighterpilot wasn't awarded for an airvictory.

Today helicopters are much more improved. But with an old ship in case of an complete electrical failure on IFR or engine failure in the dark night, i would prefer the chute.

[Graviman]

Hmm, good thread. Ghengis has a good point, regarding automatic entry into auto:

"In a helicopter, an RPM drop sensor combined with a weight-on-skids switch would probably do the job and be fairly easy to mechanise."

I'm all for reliable auto pilot safety aids...

Haven't done it for a while, but i used to enjoy gliding. Wind gradient often presented fun on "extended" approaches. Pretty much everyone i knew had a "heavy landing" story, i'm afraid i'm no exception . Stall speed (what's that? ) was about 40, so low energy stuff - but i often wondered if an airbag would help to keep the options open. It's webbed now so ya caint patent it!

In a heli it could double as a buoyancy aid for forced single-eng VRF sorties over water, but would be ideal below the H-V curve. The best trigger i thought of was an altimeter activated ground dopplar radar or sonar. The best design a multicelled bag, with pressure relief tearouts. It assumes that the aircraft gets to the ground in fairly large chunks, under vague control.

I'm curious as to R22 muster pilots views on that one...

Mart

[slowrotor]

parachute?

Gravimans suggestion for an airbag makes more sense to me. Think of the guys that went over Niagra falls in a barrel and survived. Maybe advanced crash structure as in all modern cars is the way. Structural steel that absorbs the impact in a progressive manner. Parachutes only work if you are at some altitude, crashes often occur with little warning.

[tecpilot]

Russian technology one step behind western?

The Ka-50 is the world's first operational helicopter with a rescue ejection system, which allows pilots to escape at all altitudes and speeds. The K-37-800 Rocket Assisted Ejection System is manufactured by the Zvezda Research and Production Enterprise Joint Stock Company in the Moscow Region. The seat operates by pulling the pilot from the helicopter cabin using a solid-propellant rocket motor. The system comprises the seat, a control unit and a pullout rocket motor. The seat is fitted with a survival pack containing an NAZ-7M survival kit, a life raft and a PS-37A parachute system. The seat provides safe forced emergency escape from helicopters in the speed range 0 to 350 km/hour and at altitude 0 to 6,000 metres. The seat also provides safe ejection during inverted flight (at speeds 0 to 330 km/h with zero vertical velocity) at a minimum altitude of 90 metres. Pilot is ejected in max. six seconds.

[Graviman]

"...advanced crash structure as in all modern cars..."

Actually the whole thing started when an aviator (Hugh DeHaven) survived a mid-air collision, and wondered why his opposite number didn't....

I certainly think that perhaps it is time to at least investigate design for crash survivability in light aircraft / helos. Amusingly, i spent some years as a crash design engineer (specialised in simulation, Rover 75) - interesting stuff, but not engines. Basically the biggest problem becomes how to package air! You need crush space to deccelerate "occupants" from impact speed to zero, while staying below 40g (assuming well restrained) - this is why you can generally wave your hand around the engine bay in NCAP compliant cars (ignoring plasticky stuff). The really clever bit is to have structure that is light, deforms progressively, and doesn't go to pieces if overloaded - this way even a real bad'un gives the guy a fighting chance...

At an interview with BAE, i was genuinely suprised that wings were not tested to absolute failure - i know of one 747 incident where crew pulled 7g out of a dive, but still landed one banana shaped Boeing...

Mart

[DogTailRed2]

Do helicopter crew carry parachutes? I appreciate that the rotors make ejection almost impossible, at altitude if a catastrophic failure occurs is there no option for abandoning the aircraft? This accident was at zero altitude.so obviously no applicable.

[Hot 'n' High]

Originally Posted by DogTailRed2

Do helicopter crew carry parachutes? ..........

Very rarely for the reasons you cited + the fact most helo ops are quite low-level affairs. The Russian Ka-50 and Ka-52 attack helicopters have ejection seats but not aware of any others. But, on some rare occasions..........

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-1614706.html

IIR, there was some talk about the RN AEW fleet crews getting chutes back in the day as they often operate at high level but not sure what became of that idea - I never saw it. Certainly, when doing the dunker (even just as pax), it took quite an effort to escape with just a life jacket on so, if approaching the ship after an AEW sortie you went in, a parachute would probably become quite a liability.

[tucumseh]

Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High

Very rarely for the reasons you cited + the fact most helo ops are quite low-level affairs. The Russian Ka-50 and Ka-52 attack helicopters have ejection seats but not aware of any others. But, on some rare occasions..........

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-1614706.html

IIR, there was some talk about the RN AEW fleet crews getting chutes back in the day as they often operate at high level but not sure what became of that idea - I never saw it. Certainly, when doing the dunker (even just as pax), it took quite an effort to escape with just a life jacket on so, if approaching the ship after an AEW sortie you went in, a parachute would probably become quite a liability.

I agree with this. I seem to recall the pilot had a narrow escape, a rotor blade digging in a couple of feet from his head. Memory fades. Them carrying parachutes was a Westland thing.

Nevertheless, the accident prompted a programme involving Irwin to assess the benefits. I'm not sure it got beyond Feasibility Study. The chap who managed it left the project office when PE decamped to Abbey Wood, and all such work was transferred to DHSA at Yeovilton.

Edited to add: As Hot'n'High said, it was Sea King who looked at it in 95/96 - not Merlin.

[Video Mixdown]

Originally Posted by DogTailRed2

Do helicopter crew carry parachutes? I appreciate that the rotors make ejection almost impossible, at altitude if a catastrophic failure occurs is there no option for abandoning the aircraft? This accident was at zero altitude.so obviously no applicable.

Once worked on an animation/cockpit voice recording of the loss of a Merlin in the 1990's. The crew were all wearing parachutes because it was a test flight and survived. Abandonment sounded remarkably calm and controlled.