Almost had a mid-air collision yesterday...
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Almost had a mid-air collision yesterday...
Yesterday, I was flying mostly off-shore (Atlantic Ocean off NJ Coast) and in some of the larger bay areas (Chesapeake Bay and Delaware Bay). Anyway, I was on the way back in - about a mile off the beach heading for an inlet when a fixed-wing plane missed me by about 50-75 feet!
I was decending for a low pass along some boats and was about 100' ASL at the time (getting set up to take some pictures). The nearest air field was about 8 nm away or so. He was heading into the sun, so I don't think he ever saw me. The weather and visibility were excellent, and he looked like he was following along the beach at low-level. From my perspective, he came out of nowhere and cut right in front of me before I knew he was there!
Needless, to say I was a bit pi$$ed off that this bone-head was flying below 500' and didn't make any position calls. More importantly, he didn't pay attention to our position calls. What the heck was this guy doing at that altitude?
Has this ever happened to you?
I was decending for a low pass along some boats and was about 100' ASL at the time (getting set up to take some pictures). The nearest air field was about 8 nm away or so. He was heading into the sun, so I don't think he ever saw me. The weather and visibility were excellent, and he looked like he was following along the beach at low-level. From my perspective, he came out of nowhere and cut right in front of me before I knew he was there!
Needless, to say I was a bit pi$$ed off that this bone-head was flying below 500' and didn't make any position calls. More importantly, he didn't pay attention to our position calls. What the heck was this guy doing at that altitude?
Has this ever happened to you?
Senis Semper Fidelis
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
From: Lancashire U K
Yesterday, Sunday, I watched from my home, a high winged light aircraft alter his heading dramatically, start to lose hight and then incredible as it seems the A/C started to circle a Microlight who was down at about 400ft, he seemed to do about two orbits and then flew off, I wonder what the Micro pilot felt like
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
From: Queensland Australia
Can't blame only plank drivers, I'm afraid.
My near miss story involved another R22 driver about four years ago. I was involved in an aero club "Air Race", actually more of a rally with Nav Ex and questions about features on the way.
Safety breifing prior stated clearly "No orbitting on track, if you miss an answer don't go round. They aren't worth the risk etc etc."
At one feature (a cattle station airstrip) question was something about the number of cattle yards at one end of the strip.
Gave an " All Stations" call as we approached, no answer - We came down to about 500 ft AGL running down the strip. Out of corner of eye a shadow appears on ground, small and coming toward us. I look around and see a large hawk off to the sun side. In the instant that my brain used to be able to work I crunched the thought, "It's OK the shadow is the hawk and he's out of the way" Followed by "Hang on the the shadow is coming toward us and the hawk isn't where the shadow suggests it should be."
Bank left, as another R22 (one of the other contestants) passes us about single digit rotor distances at the same altitude going th eopposite way, on our right.
Going the "wrong way" to get a recount of the stockyard numbers.
Boy was I unimpressed about that!
My near miss story involved another R22 driver about four years ago. I was involved in an aero club "Air Race", actually more of a rally with Nav Ex and questions about features on the way.
Safety breifing prior stated clearly "No orbitting on track, if you miss an answer don't go round. They aren't worth the risk etc etc."
At one feature (a cattle station airstrip) question was something about the number of cattle yards at one end of the strip.
Gave an " All Stations" call as we approached, no answer - We came down to about 500 ft AGL running down the strip. Out of corner of eye a shadow appears on ground, small and coming toward us. I look around and see a large hawk off to the sun side. In the instant that my brain used to be able to work I crunched the thought, "It's OK the shadow is the hawk and he's out of the way" Followed by "Hang on the the shadow is coming toward us and the hawk isn't where the shadow suggests it should be."
Bank left, as another R22 (one of the other contestants) passes us about single digit rotor distances at the same altitude going th eopposite way, on our right.
Going the "wrong way" to get a recount of the stockyard numbers.
Boy was I unimpressed about that!
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
From: North of the Border
Only goes to show that you cannot assume that everyone else is listening to your position reports. I work on the basis that if I am in an unusual location/at an unusual altitude, sod's law means that there will be someone else doing exactly the same thing in other direction.
This demonstrates how alert you have to be at low level - it is too easy to be distracted by the boats/ cattle pens/ photo shoot and forget to look where you are going and whether some one got there first.
This demonstrates how alert you have to be at low level - it is too easy to be distracted by the boats/ cattle pens/ photo shoot and forget to look where you are going and whether some one got there first.
Iconoclast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
From: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Near Miss or is it Ms.
Many moons ago (too many to count) I was flying as a flight engineer on a USCG PBY-5A. We were based at Corpus Christi NAS. The Navy had several smaller air stations in the near vicinity each with its’ own tower and control. Our aircraft was practicing ground-controlled approaches to the ground and our pilots were “under the hood”. We were being controlled by NAS corpus Christi.
The sky was overcast and although visibility to the ground was good horizontal visibility was not so good. Out of the corner of my eye I spotted an aircraft that was at our same altitude and crossing our path at about 90-degrees from the left. I contacted the pilots but they did not respond as to lose contact with the ground for several seconds required that they break away from the landing path and make a go-around. I contacted the pilots several times more as the aircraft came closer. Finally, I hit command override and told the pilots that the aircraft was coming closer. They made some unintelligible comment and just then the GCA that was controlling our landing path saw the same aircraft on their screens and the GCA controlling the other aircraft (a JRB Beech D-18) saw us on their screens. Pandemonium ensued as our respective GCA controllers told us and the other pilot who was also under the hood to pull up and or dive. We missed each other by about 500 feet.
The sky was overcast and although visibility to the ground was good horizontal visibility was not so good. Out of the corner of my eye I spotted an aircraft that was at our same altitude and crossing our path at about 90-degrees from the left. I contacted the pilots but they did not respond as to lose contact with the ground for several seconds required that they break away from the landing path and make a go-around. I contacted the pilots several times more as the aircraft came closer. Finally, I hit command override and told the pilots that the aircraft was coming closer. They made some unintelligible comment and just then the GCA that was controlling our landing path saw the same aircraft on their screens and the GCA controlling the other aircraft (a JRB Beech D-18) saw us on their screens. Pandemonium ensued as our respective GCA controllers told us and the other pilot who was also under the hood to pull up and or dive. We missed each other by about 500 feet.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
From: USA
3 years ago, after making all my position calls into an uncontrolled airfield, had just turned right base to final. Seconds later I was nearly hit by a twin engine jump plane who turned a left base to final almost right into me. He never made a single position call. I made a hard bank to the right to avoid the plane and my passenger thought I was going to drop her out of the door.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Port Townsend,WA. USA
FAR 91.119
RDrickster,
A fixed wing pilot has the same right to fly at 100ft legally along a beach as you do in a helicopter.
"500 feet above the surface,except over open water or sparsely populated areas.
Helicopters are almost impossible to see.
Helicopters have better visibility with windows all sides, that puts the burden for avoidance more on the helo pilot.
A fixed wing pilot has the same right to fly at 100ft legally along a beach as you do in a helicopter.
"500 feet above the surface,except over open water or sparsely populated areas.
Helicopters are almost impossible to see.
Helicopters have better visibility with windows all sides, that puts the burden for avoidance more on the helo pilot.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
I didn't know that about the fixed-wing over water... I'll definately keep that in mind. Even with active scanning, I wouldn't have seen him because he came from a shallow angle behind me. I was flying slow on a course of 250, and he was probably on a course of 200 or so (and much faster). I need to put eyes in the back of my head!
Nevertheless, the FAR also states... "In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure." Since there was a fleet of boats below, the fixed-wing pilot was still in violation because he was within 500 feet of a vessel.
Nevertheless, the FAR also states... "In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure." Since there was a fleet of boats below, the fixed-wing pilot was still in violation because he was within 500 feet of a vessel.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 364
Likes: 0
From: Just over there....no there.
Makes you wonder why no-one has come up with a type of horn device doesn't it? Maybe using the radio on a broadband frequency, mind you I suspect the whole network would be obliterated by beeping!
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Port Townsend,WA. USA
I think we need special com radios that you can set to broadcast on very low power a tone that only is heard by other traffic within a half mile and forward direction.
And receive with a directional detecting antennae so the pilot "hears" the approaching traffic in his headset on the left or right or behind, etc, before he even sees the traffic. Head outside instead of staring at the panel.
Also, at my local airport the CATF 123.0 mhz is used by four local airports within 50 miles. What a mess.
Setting the radio to transmit just 5 miles would be a nice feature. Then you could broadcast blind all you want to local traffic.
And receive with a directional detecting antennae so the pilot "hears" the approaching traffic in his headset on the left or right or behind, etc, before he even sees the traffic. Head outside instead of staring at the panel.
Also, at my local airport the CATF 123.0 mhz is used by four local airports within 50 miles. What a mess.
Setting the radio to transmit just 5 miles would be a nice feature. Then you could broadcast blind all you want to local traffic.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 396
Likes: 1
From: US...for now.
Hey, RDRickster. Getting hit from behind is a risk we all take, and one of which there is little we can do. As you say, we don't have eyes in the back of our head, and even if we did there's too much aircraft structure in the way for them to do any good. Bottom line: you just cannot look around too much, and sometimes that might not even be good enough.
Most helicopters are among the slowest craft in the air, and this puts us at special risk when being overtaken by seagulls, ultralights, hot-air balloons and the occasional errant fixed-wing. I vividly recall going up the Hudson River in a 206 one day and nearly being run over by a Cessna twin of some sort. Our ship had only the requisite single white anti-collision light on the top of the vertical fin (before the FAA, in a fit of sheer stupid madness mandated that they all be changed back to red). I subsequently felt quite outraged when my Chief Pilot rebuffed my request for better additional strobe lighting facing rearward, something I've come to believe is a necessity for helicopters. Where I live now, the slowest U.S. Navy trainers all have those neat combination tail position light/strobes, evidently to protect the little T-34's from being run over by F-18's (or each other).
So I sympathize with your anger at your near-hit.
Question though. Is there some sort of CTAF that the other aircraft should have been monitoring? Your post makes it sound like there was.
Most helicopters are among the slowest craft in the air, and this puts us at special risk when being overtaken by seagulls, ultralights, hot-air balloons and the occasional errant fixed-wing. I vividly recall going up the Hudson River in a 206 one day and nearly being run over by a Cessna twin of some sort. Our ship had only the requisite single white anti-collision light on the top of the vertical fin (before the FAA, in a fit of sheer stupid madness mandated that they all be changed back to red). I subsequently felt quite outraged when my Chief Pilot rebuffed my request for better additional strobe lighting facing rearward, something I've come to believe is a necessity for helicopters. Where I live now, the slowest U.S. Navy trainers all have those neat combination tail position light/strobes, evidently to protect the little T-34's from being run over by F-18's (or each other).
So I sympathize with your anger at your near-hit.
Question though. Is there some sort of CTAF that the other aircraft should have been monitoring? Your post makes it sound like there was.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
From: Over here
Any time you're near a beach, you'd better be looking out for fixed-wing, helicopters, and kites. I've seen (HUGE!!) kites flying above 300' tethered to something on the beach, and I've seen them above the clouds. There's usually nice wind, and people like to fly them there. Close to beaches is probably as dangerous, if not moreso, than close to airports, since the pilots are often paying more attention to looking at the beach, bathers, etc than to looking for other traffic. Never assume they're listening to any radio, and of course the kites aren't listening to anything. As always, it's your responsibility to see and avoid. And it's your butt, which is more important.
Gatvol
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 4,197
Likes: 1
From: KLAS/TIST/FAJS/KFAI
Try flying some of the places in Alaska like Windy Pass etc. in crap Weather. You dont alter your course till you see the whites of their eyes. Had a friend who, some years back, had a C185 Tail Wheel bonk the top of his MD500 in the opposite direction. He got it on the ground before rolling it in a ball.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,670
Likes: 1
From: UK
There was the infamous mid air between a tucano RAF trainer and an AS355 which was hit from behind two years ago. Cockpit took out stinger. Everyone OK
We fly with TCAS, rotatable belly pod 450 watt L. Lamp facing aft and the nose L Lamp fwd, with HISL on the tail and strobes port and stbd. Conspicuity colour scheme too.
Our 'proximity' rates have dropped but it's still very busy up there.
[Last year we did 1300 sorties, and in the same airspace, the mil did 18,000 low level training sorties in jets
Nothing worse than a TCAS warning "traffic, traffic" and not seeing the imminent collision vehicle with the mark one eyeball.
We fly with TCAS, rotatable belly pod 450 watt L. Lamp facing aft and the nose L Lamp fwd, with HISL on the tail and strobes port and stbd. Conspicuity colour scheme too.
Our 'proximity' rates have dropped but it's still very busy up there.
[Last year we did 1300 sorties, and in the same airspace, the mil did 18,000 low level training sorties in jets
Nothing worse than a TCAS warning "traffic, traffic" and not seeing the imminent collision vehicle with the mark one eyeball.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
From: Rhode Island, USA
two small private planes flew head on into each other early this week 100 feet above the runway at a small airport in Westerly RI. dead and injured. very sad.
The seeming frequent number of crashes involving small private planes makes me wonder about the wisdom of getting a PPL at my advanced middle age.
The seeming frequent number of crashes involving small private planes makes me wonder about the wisdom of getting a PPL at my advanced middle age.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
From: US
two small private planes flew head on into each other early this week 100 feet above the runway at a small airport in Westerly RI. dead and injured.
You can see more details at http://www.aero-news.net
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
From: Rhode Island, USA
My apologies, I was recalling the newspaper article I read yesterday, they stated that the planes hit head on I believe, but that was obviously written before a full invistigation was begun. Still quite sad
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
From: US
Still quite sad
A friend of mine had been up flying a Piper Arrow that day, so I had a bit of a fright while watching the news in the morning. It took a while before they covered enough detail for me to realize it wasn't my friend...
Last edited by OFBSLF; 20th November 2003 at 10:31.
