Night HEMS Ops - Twin or Single?
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As Nick has pointed out in previous posts, not many accidents have been caused by engine failures, especially in the offshore role.
What the paramedics, and pilots of course, want is decent instrumentation and sas systems fitted. These are normally found on twin engined machines and thus the call for twins.
Most of the EMS/SAR accidents in Queensland have been pilot error type accidents where the conditions have not been suitable for the job in hand.
There have been some single engine failure accidents in QLD over the years in charter flights, such as a S58 engine failed on take off, S62 spanner into engine after take, several 206s,etc. However the reliability of singles has improved immensily over the years.
Having said that it is up to CASA to make the regs with a bit more common sense and practicallity than at present as I find it ridiculous that I am allowed to fly a 350 without flotation over the sea without emergency floatation just because I am a rescue helicopter which is classed as aerial work and therefore floats are not required.
QLD only has one auto hover helicopter, a 412, in Cairns and thats it, all the rest are vfr singles and twins and very few ifr twins.
Neither Mr Beattie nor councils nor companies will spend more unless someone makes them.
Rant over!!
What the paramedics, and pilots of course, want is decent instrumentation and sas systems fitted. These are normally found on twin engined machines and thus the call for twins.
Most of the EMS/SAR accidents in Queensland have been pilot error type accidents where the conditions have not been suitable for the job in hand.
There have been some single engine failure accidents in QLD over the years in charter flights, such as a S58 engine failed on take off, S62 spanner into engine after take, several 206s,etc. However the reliability of singles has improved immensily over the years.
Having said that it is up to CASA to make the regs with a bit more common sense and practicallity than at present as I find it ridiculous that I am allowed to fly a 350 without flotation over the sea without emergency floatation just because I am a rescue helicopter which is classed as aerial work and therefore floats are not required.
QLD only has one auto hover helicopter, a 412, in Cairns and thats it, all the rest are vfr singles and twins and very few ifr twins.
Neither Mr Beattie nor councils nor companies will spend more unless someone makes them.
Rant over!!
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Auto
Yes, they are IFR but not equipped with auto hover unlike the Cairns machine. This means they do not winch over the water at night, hence when the Capricorn 407 ditched, they were not rescued until dawn.
The only auto hover machines in Oz are the Cairns 412 and 4 S76, at least that was the number when I gave it away.
Yes, they are IFR but not equipped with auto hover unlike the Cairns machine. This means they do not winch over the water at night, hence when the Capricorn 407 ditched, they were not rescued until dawn.
The only auto hover machines in Oz are the Cairns 412 and 4 S76, at least that was the number when I gave it away.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Qld Paramedics
Havn't they being doing single pilot IFR stateside for a while in single EMS ops. What did the paramedics have to say about that?
I would have thought because of the geography, that the guys down under would be in twins with two pilot IFR. I doesn't make any sense to me. The majority of the work is carried out on singles and then the Telstra child flight is a dauphin, which is just retreival work?
I know everybody took the piss when JAR made all IFR work twin and two up, but if there is a successful model in the states, should they not be looking at that instead of the JAR model?
MD 900
I would have thought because of the geography, that the guys down under would be in twins with two pilot IFR. I doesn't make any sense to me. The majority of the work is carried out on singles and then the Telstra child flight is a dauphin, which is just retreival work?
I know everybody took the piss when JAR made all IFR work twin and two up, but if there is a successful model in the states, should they not be looking at that instead of the JAR model?
MD 900
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I totally support the paras in this instance. Every member of my crew has the right to vito any mission if they feel unsafe or uncomfortable at any stage. I fly a sophistocated ifr twin most of the time but when I am flying a vfr single at night, I have the rule that if I think that conditions might require that I have to fly at some stage of the mission, with no visual horizon (ie. flight with reference to instruments alone) then I decline the mission. To me, flying on instruments in a non ifr, non stabilised, non auto-piloted aircraft is courting trouble. I know that it is legal but is it wise? I believe that if you have to fly with reference to instruments alone then its ifr and the aircraft and pilot should be properly rated.
To me the most important piece of equipment for night operations is a stability system preferrably with an auto-pilot. Its nice to have the second engine but its not as important as the automated systems. I believe that the Qld Govt should restrict the EMS singles in the state to day vfr ops only unless they have stability and auto-pilot with an ifr rated pilot with extensive ifr background and currency in ifr ops. In relation to 2 pilot ops, I have flown in some multi crew ops where the workload is much higher than single pilot ops with a well equipt aircraft. A well trained crewie can assist the pilot immensely and ease the workload during demanding oparations.
Its about time that CASA started being realistic in relation to night ops. You can't tell me that flying 50 miles out to sea on a black night to drop off a ships pilot isn't ifr ops. How can Casa say that its nvfr. How many more good people have to die?
To me the most important piece of equipment for night operations is a stability system preferrably with an auto-pilot. Its nice to have the second engine but its not as important as the automated systems. I believe that the Qld Govt should restrict the EMS singles in the state to day vfr ops only unless they have stability and auto-pilot with an ifr rated pilot with extensive ifr background and currency in ifr ops. In relation to 2 pilot ops, I have flown in some multi crew ops where the workload is much higher than single pilot ops with a well equipt aircraft. A well trained crewie can assist the pilot immensely and ease the workload during demanding oparations.
Its about time that CASA started being realistic in relation to night ops. You can't tell me that flying 50 miles out to sea on a black night to drop off a ships pilot isn't ifr ops. How can Casa say that its nvfr. How many more good people have to die?
Last edited by Wallaby; 13th Nov 2003 at 18:00.
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well said!
A very wise and logical man you are, Wallaby!
Can't agree with you more! I fly a 76, day/night/ifr/ 2 crew..... However, at night, I still think or treat it as IFR( maintaining MOCA, stable maneuvers, reference to instruments...etc).
The rules are minimum standards, but our attitude towards the flight/ environment will save or kill us!!!!
D.K
Can't agree with you more! I fly a 76, day/night/ifr/ 2 crew..... However, at night, I still think or treat it as IFR( maintaining MOCA, stable maneuvers, reference to instruments...etc).
The rules are minimum standards, but our attitude towards the flight/ environment will save or kill us!!!!
D.K
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What would a medic know anyway?
The US model is SPIFR but flawed by the level of currency and training that most pilots recieve. Just because they have an IFR machine doesn't mean that they maintain to that standard. Most accidents in the US medical system result from CFIT in marginal wx.
I don't understand the comment about the geography in Australia. Last time I was there it was flat.......just like the ocean they were flying over.
Auto hover is a real blessing but not completely necessary. Plenty of Rescue operators do without. The added weight to all this is the big penalty.....ask the 412 drivers in Cairns.
The US model is SPIFR but flawed by the level of currency and training that most pilots recieve. Just because they have an IFR machine doesn't mean that they maintain to that standard. Most accidents in the US medical system result from CFIT in marginal wx.
I don't understand the comment about the geography in Australia. Last time I was there it was flat.......just like the ocean they were flying over.
Auto hover is a real blessing but not completely necessary. Plenty of Rescue operators do without. The added weight to all this is the big penalty.....ask the 412 drivers in Cairns.
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MD900 - Most of the EMS operators in Australia and NZ for that matter use twin engine machines.
Westpac Auckland - BK117
Westpac Wellington - BK117
Westpac Christchurch - BK117
Westpac Hamilton - Bell 222
Tranzrail Taupo - AS350
Westpac Sydney - BK117
Westpac Wollongong - BK117
Careflight Sydney - BK117
Childflight Sydney - SA365N2
Hunter Rescue Newcastle - Bell 412
Hunter Rescue Tamworth - Bell 407
Careflight Orange - Agusta A119 Koala
Adelaide EMS Machine - Bell 412
Vic Pol - SA365N3 and N2s
Melbourne Ambulance Service - 2 x Bell 412s
New Service in Perth - Bell 412
Careflight Gold Coast - Bell 412
Surf Lifesaving Gold Coast - AS350
QES - 3 x Bell 412s
Others that I am not sure of but include Bell 206L, BK117 etc. Sorry to those I missed out on.
Autorotate.
Westpac Auckland - BK117
Westpac Wellington - BK117
Westpac Christchurch - BK117
Westpac Hamilton - Bell 222
Tranzrail Taupo - AS350
Westpac Sydney - BK117
Westpac Wollongong - BK117
Careflight Sydney - BK117
Childflight Sydney - SA365N2
Hunter Rescue Newcastle - Bell 412
Hunter Rescue Tamworth - Bell 407
Careflight Orange - Agusta A119 Koala
Adelaide EMS Machine - Bell 412
Vic Pol - SA365N3 and N2s
Melbourne Ambulance Service - 2 x Bell 412s
New Service in Perth - Bell 412
Careflight Gold Coast - Bell 412
Surf Lifesaving Gold Coast - AS350
QES - 3 x Bell 412s
Others that I am not sure of but include Bell 206L, BK117 etc. Sorry to those I missed out on.
Autorotate.
Last edited by Autorotate; 12th Nov 2003 at 09:42.
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Chairman
I'm surprised you find winching a person out of the sea on a black night, maybe stormy as well, to be quite easy and safe without an auto hover system.
The Cairns 412 has used their auto hover quite a few times whereas QES other two 412 have waited till daylight; in fact that's what happened when the previous 407 ditched recently.
After 44 years in helicopters, having had to do rescues from Bell 47s to S76s, I know which I would prefer to use on a black night!
I'm surprised you find winching a person out of the sea on a black night, maybe stormy as well, to be quite easy and safe without an auto hover system.
The Cairns 412 has used their auto hover quite a few times whereas QES other two 412 have waited till daylight; in fact that's what happened when the previous 407 ditched recently.
After 44 years in helicopters, having had to do rescues from Bell 47s to S76s, I know which I would prefer to use on a black night!
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having spent the last 4 years with medics I am overqualified to pass sentence on them
their knowledge is largely selective and they are mostly ignorant to the workings or requirements of rotary aviation. just ask one to explain how the thing stays in the air.
for them to pass judgement on single or twins is like me sticking my nose into their business and refusing to take a patient because I percieve a risk to myself. just shut up, strap in and get on with it. if you don't want to fly then get back into a land unit. leave the transport stuff to us.
Nige.YES: autohover is excellent. still many have and still will manage to do without it. see: bass strait 1999 - sydney to hobart.
What would I know about home flungdung. few hills down near sydney and melbourne, a couple around cairns (in fact i bombed around to a tower or two on those ones) but mostly if you are in queensland there ain't much to hit above 3000. As for over the water...DUH.
griffin: CRM is a doddle by yourself. What would a griffin driver know anyway. I don't need 4 people to help me into and out of a confined...and I don't need your smart arse comments about my CRM.
howzat gomer?
their knowledge is largely selective and they are mostly ignorant to the workings or requirements of rotary aviation. just ask one to explain how the thing stays in the air.
for them to pass judgement on single or twins is like me sticking my nose into their business and refusing to take a patient because I percieve a risk to myself. just shut up, strap in and get on with it. if you don't want to fly then get back into a land unit. leave the transport stuff to us.
Nige.YES: autohover is excellent. still many have and still will manage to do without it. see: bass strait 1999 - sydney to hobart.
What would I know about home flungdung. few hills down near sydney and melbourne, a couple around cairns (in fact i bombed around to a tower or two on those ones) but mostly if you are in queensland there ain't much to hit above 3000. As for over the water...DUH.
griffin: CRM is a doddle by yourself. What would a griffin driver know anyway. I don't need 4 people to help me into and out of a confined...and I don't need your smart arse comments about my CRM.
howzat gomer?
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Chair
I dont think Nigel was suggesting that Autohover is required by day but he is right about night work I would like to know how you have done it by night, particularly since in some acft you can't run the nitesun and winch at the same time.
You must fly a Bell and be blessed with good visibility because as someone of your experience in 76s will know that visual reference out of a 76 is not flash and I am very thankfull to have all the assistance I can muster.
As for the Syd - Hob 99 the only night rescue that I am aware of was performed by a Navy Seahawk using autohover.
I dont think Nigel was suggesting that Autohover is required by day but he is right about night work I would like to know how you have done it by night, particularly since in some acft you can't run the nitesun and winch at the same time.
You must fly a Bell and be blessed with good visibility because as someone of your experience in 76s will know that visual reference out of a 76 is not flash and I am very thankfull to have all the assistance I can muster.
As for the Syd - Hob 99 the only night rescue that I am aware of was performed by a Navy Seahawk using autohover.
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Anyone got the CAO's in front of them re winching over water at night? Can't remember it word for word but there is reference to a system (read auto hover) that measures speed/height over water.
AS for me, the paramedics I have worked with over the years, may not know how it flys, but they can certainly interpret when they are not happy with a situation. There's not a chance in hell that I would go into a black hole at night without having someone in the back with their heads out the door. Give them a bit more credit.
AS for me, the paramedics I have worked with over the years, may not know how it flys, but they can certainly interpret when they are not happy with a situation. There's not a chance in hell that I would go into a black hole at night without having someone in the back with their heads out the door. Give them a bit more credit.
Last edited by Too Cloudy; 13th Nov 2003 at 06:35.
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Wallaby,
Absolutely. But am I being naiive in thinking that someone might fly in conditions using reference to instruments alone, and attempt to call this vfr?
UK military rules:
you fly IFR when any of following apply:
a) IMC
b) Controlled air space at night
c) When in airspace for which IFR is mandatory
Point (a) seems to apply in this case...
Genuine question... Is this not the case for you guys?
SBW
...Unless we're talking pseudo-IFR, ie IFR in all but name - dark night, over water, no NVGs...
I believe that if you have to fly with reference to instruments alone then its ifr and the aircraft and pilot should be properly rated
UK military rules:
you fly IFR when any of following apply:
a) IMC
b) Controlled air space at night
c) When in airspace for which IFR is mandatory
Point (a) seems to apply in this case...
Genuine question... Is this not the case for you guys?
SBW
...Unless we're talking pseudo-IFR, ie IFR in all but name - dark night, over water, no NVGs...
Last edited by sarboy w****r; 13th Nov 2003 at 07:04.
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chairmanoftheboorish
Just a few points for you to consider.
As 200psi pointed out, no one was rescued at night by a non-autohover aircraft during the 1999 Sydney-to-Hobart. Yes, they are heavy (especially on the Cairns 412, not so much on the S76) but you can't do without them at night, over water, if you want to actually rescue someone.
You don't need any help getting into a confined area? That really depends on your definition of confined doesn't it?
You said, "I don't understand the comment about the geography in Australia". That's right, you don't.
You said, "What would a Medic know anyway", you must be a pleasure to work with. Having worked with them for 16 years, it would be my opinion that some of them know quite a bit, certainly enough to make informed judgements about their own lives. Yes, there are fools in every occupation, we only need to look at you for a good example.
It would seem by your comments to griffin and flungdung that you can dish it out but can't take it and I don't think we need your smart arse comments full stop.
Just a few points for you to consider.
As 200psi pointed out, no one was rescued at night by a non-autohover aircraft during the 1999 Sydney-to-Hobart. Yes, they are heavy (especially on the Cairns 412, not so much on the S76) but you can't do without them at night, over water, if you want to actually rescue someone.
You don't need any help getting into a confined area? That really depends on your definition of confined doesn't it?
You said, "I don't understand the comment about the geography in Australia". That's right, you don't.
You said, "What would a Medic know anyway", you must be a pleasure to work with. Having worked with them for 16 years, it would be my opinion that some of them know quite a bit, certainly enough to make informed judgements about their own lives. Yes, there are fools in every occupation, we only need to look at you for a good example.
It would seem by your comments to griffin and flungdung that you can dish it out but can't take it and I don't think we need your smart arse comments full stop.
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Too Cloudy,
CAO 29.11 (6.4) States
When the flight attitude, height and position of the helicopter cannot be maintained by reference to external objects adequitely illuminated by ground or celestial lighting, a helicopter shall not engage in winching operations over the surface of the sea or a body of water at night unless it is equipped with,
(a) as specified in para 4.2 and app vii of sect 20.18
which states,
PARA 4.2 20.18
"a helicopter shall not be operated inder IFR unless it is equipped with,
a) the flight and nav instruments specified in app vii,viii or ix to this section.
b) any other instruments indicators specified in the fright manual
c) the minimum lighting requirements in app v
d) AN APPROVED AUTOMATIC PILOT, OR AUTOMATIC STABILISATION SYSTEM, FOR OTHER THAN NIGHT VFR FLIGHTS EXCEPT THAT IN THE CASE OF SUCH A FLIGHT WHICH WILL INVOLVE MORE THAN 30 MINS FLIGHT OVER WATER OR LAND WHERE AIRCRAFT ALTITUDE CANNOT BE MAINTAINED BY REFERENCE TO GROUND LIGHTING, AN APPROVED AUTOSTABILISATIONS SYSTEM OR A 2 PILOT CREW SHALL BE CARRIED.
CAO 29.11 (6.4) States
When the flight attitude, height and position of the helicopter cannot be maintained by reference to external objects adequitely illuminated by ground or celestial lighting, a helicopter shall not engage in winching operations over the surface of the sea or a body of water at night unless it is equipped with,
(a) as specified in para 4.2 and app vii of sect 20.18
which states,
PARA 4.2 20.18
"a helicopter shall not be operated inder IFR unless it is equipped with,
a) the flight and nav instruments specified in app vii,viii or ix to this section.
b) any other instruments indicators specified in the fright manual
c) the minimum lighting requirements in app v
d) AN APPROVED AUTOMATIC PILOT, OR AUTOMATIC STABILISATION SYSTEM, FOR OTHER THAN NIGHT VFR FLIGHTS EXCEPT THAT IN THE CASE OF SUCH A FLIGHT WHICH WILL INVOLVE MORE THAN 30 MINS FLIGHT OVER WATER OR LAND WHERE AIRCRAFT ALTITUDE CANNOT BE MAINTAINED BY REFERENCE TO GROUND LIGHTING, AN APPROVED AUTOSTABILISATIONS SYSTEM OR A 2 PILOT CREW SHALL BE CARRIED.
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Chairman
In 1999 I was one of the auto hover S76 pilots that Ausar failed to call out for reasons I won't go into here.
As Trimpot and others have said, I don't believe anyone was winched out of the sea at night by a crew in a non auto machine.
By requiring auto hover, I mean winching at night either from small boats or directly out of the sea. I do not mean large ships which have plenty of lighting and visual cues.
I see on the news yesterday that the ATSB have recommended some sort of SAS to be fitted. Maybe they read Pprune too!
In 1999 I was one of the auto hover S76 pilots that Ausar failed to call out for reasons I won't go into here.
As Trimpot and others have said, I don't believe anyone was winched out of the sea at night by a crew in a non auto machine.
By requiring auto hover, I mean winching at night either from small boats or directly out of the sea. I do not mean large ships which have plenty of lighting and visual cues.
I see on the news yesterday that the ATSB have recommended some sort of SAS to be fitted. Maybe they read Pprune too!
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Chairman,
You’re fighting above your weight division. Stick to junior league, you have some way to go before you make 1st grade.
Griffin has nothing to do what I fly. It’s a callsign - look at my profile. I’ll even give you a hint – Marlin, Possum, Redback and Cavalier.
You’re fighting above your weight division. Stick to junior league, you have some way to go before you make 1st grade.
Griffin has nothing to do what I fly. It’s a callsign - look at my profile. I’ll even give you a hint – Marlin, Possum, Redback and Cavalier.
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SARBOY,
there is quite a lot of ifr flight being done in this country under the guise of "NGT VFR". Not only in the EMS game but also in the ships pilot transfer field. A lot of these flights are being carried out on black nights out to sea in jet rangers, md500's and squirrels. Some use two pilots and some have mini stab systems but some of them don't and they are still vfr machines operating in ifr conditions. Casa have just been turning a blind eye to it for many years.
What a small number of the old school people in the ems industry (and some newer ones) can't seem to get through their heads is that there is always another way to get the job done. It might not be as fast or as effective but it can be done by other means or at another time. What you have to weigh up is:- " is it worth risking an aircraft and 4 or 5 crew on a high risk mission when the job could be done another way." Could it be done more safely by waiting until first light, or using a boat, or carrying the patient to a bigger clearing, or calling in a bigger or better equipt aircraft. I think that what gets a lot of people killed is ego. We all suffer from it but it is important to know when to put it aside and admit that the risks outweigh the gain. We can't save everybody.
there is quite a lot of ifr flight being done in this country under the guise of "NGT VFR". Not only in the EMS game but also in the ships pilot transfer field. A lot of these flights are being carried out on black nights out to sea in jet rangers, md500's and squirrels. Some use two pilots and some have mini stab systems but some of them don't and they are still vfr machines operating in ifr conditions. Casa have just been turning a blind eye to it for many years.
What a small number of the old school people in the ems industry (and some newer ones) can't seem to get through their heads is that there is always another way to get the job done. It might not be as fast or as effective but it can be done by other means or at another time. What you have to weigh up is:- " is it worth risking an aircraft and 4 or 5 crew on a high risk mission when the job could be done another way." Could it be done more safely by waiting until first light, or using a boat, or carrying the patient to a bigger clearing, or calling in a bigger or better equipt aircraft. I think that what gets a lot of people killed is ego. We all suffer from it but it is important to know when to put it aside and admit that the risks outweigh the gain. We can't save everybody.