Apaches in fog .... oops!
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Apaches in fog
The Tennessean
Two Longbow Apache helicopters were forced to land in a grassy area next to Interstate 65 in Sumner County yesterday when fog became too thick for pilots to fly.
Both aircraft came from the 13th Aviation at Hunter Air Force Base in Savannah, Ga., and were headed to Fort Campbell.
The 4 p.m. landing caused many motorists to rubberneck and slow down, so the Tennessee Highway Patrol dispatched a trooper to the scene to help traffic and assist the pilots if necessary.
''The fog came in so fast we had to land quickly,'' said Lt. Matt Cole, a West Point graduate who piloted one of the choppers. ''I only have about 80 hours in the air,'' Cole said about his experience. ''So this was pretty exciting.''
''When the weather moved in, and the fog moved in — with a multimillion-dollar aircraft, you set it down,'' said George Heath, spokesman for the Fort Campbell Army post.
The Apache is the Army's premier attack helicopter, Heath said. ''It does not have the sophisticated instrumentation for long-range bad weather flying.'' Two pilots were in each chopper, he said.
Fort Campbell officials dispatched military police to guard the aircraft. Heath said the choppers will leave when the fog lifts, which may be this morning.
Fog prompts 2 Army helicopters to land beside I-65
Two Longbow Apache helicopters were forced to land in a grassy area next to Interstate 65 in Sumner County yesterday when fog became too thick for pilots to fly.
Both aircraft came from the 13th Aviation at Hunter Air Force Base in Savannah, Ga., and were headed to Fort Campbell.
The 4 p.m. landing caused many motorists to rubberneck and slow down, so the Tennessee Highway Patrol dispatched a trooper to the scene to help traffic and assist the pilots if necessary.
''The fog came in so fast we had to land quickly,'' said Lt. Matt Cole, a West Point graduate who piloted one of the choppers. ''I only have about 80 hours in the air,'' Cole said about his experience. ''So this was pretty exciting.''
''When the weather moved in, and the fog moved in — with a multimillion-dollar aircraft, you set it down,'' said George Heath, spokesman for the Fort Campbell Army post.
The Apache is the Army's premier attack helicopter, Heath said. ''It does not have the sophisticated instrumentation for long-range bad weather flying.'' Two pilots were in each chopper, he said.
Fort Campbell officials dispatched military police to guard the aircraft. Heath said the choppers will leave when the fog lifts, which may be this morning.
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I guess when they get home they might be asked a few tough questions about how they got themselves into a position where they had to make that "very sound and just, Command Decision".
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I've only got 79 hours in me book..... does that limit me to non longbows?
All jokes aside... it's good to see someone who, even though he flies something as big and shiney as an Apache, he has the balls to admit that the conditions are too bad to fly.
All jokes aside... it's good to see someone who, even though he flies something as big and shiney as an Apache, he has the balls to admit that the conditions are too bad to fly.
What a load of Bo**cks. Arguably the most advanced helo in the world and it's been given to a kindergarten kid who panics at the sight of a cloud, BECAUSE THIS $3,0000000000 A/C DOESN'T HAVE AUTO PILOT 
Great ad lads, why should the world tremble?
Great ad lads, why should the world tremble?
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Since he obviously isn't instrument rated, he made the right decision. In fact, I doubt he's even finished WOFT with only 80 hours. He was probably doing some cross-country training.
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To fly instruments within US controlled airspace you must have approved equipment, a weather briefing, meet minimum approach weather requirements, IFR fuel reserves, current publications and a current and approved pilot.
This Apache was equipped with two Inertial Navigation Units (Embedded GPS, strap down ring laser gyro, doppler. and a highly integrated air data system). It is equipped with a moving map display with stick, chart, dig map, and satellite displays (1:50, 1:100, 1:250, 1:500, 1:1000). In addition it has individual pilot and CPG FLIR. No autopilot but both attitude and altitude hold (with hover capability).
Although capable of flying point to point in instrument conditions, the Apache is not considered qualified for flight in the civil airspace system (except in an emergency) nor is it qualified for a zero/zero approach.
I concur with this pilots decision to land. I believe that this pilot has 80 hours in the Apache, not 80 hours total time.
This Apache was equipped with two Inertial Navigation Units (Embedded GPS, strap down ring laser gyro, doppler. and a highly integrated air data system). It is equipped with a moving map display with stick, chart, dig map, and satellite displays (1:50, 1:100, 1:250, 1:500, 1:1000). In addition it has individual pilot and CPG FLIR. No autopilot but both attitude and altitude hold (with hover capability).
Although capable of flying point to point in instrument conditions, the Apache is not considered qualified for flight in the civil airspace system (except in an emergency) nor is it qualified for a zero/zero approach.
I concur with this pilots decision to land. I believe that this pilot has 80 hours in the Apache, not 80 hours total time.
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Thomas Coupling
To give you the right to make smart a**se derogatory comments means you must be one of the most highly qualified and experienced helicopter pilots in the world. I therefore salute you as a world class expert. (I thought the police helios were only flown in VMC??). How many of us have been in the situation where fog suddenly formed around you? I have - twice - in 36 years of military flying. And it was scary.
Doesn't matter what the equipment fit is on the aircraft...
He's new to the aircraft, clearly under training...
He took the safest option and removed the hazard to human life by landing immediately...
Now convince me that what he did was worthy of your derisory words.
To give you the right to make smart a**se derogatory comments means you must be one of the most highly qualified and experienced helicopter pilots in the world. I therefore salute you as a world class expert. (I thought the police helios were only flown in VMC??). How many of us have been in the situation where fog suddenly formed around you? I have - twice - in 36 years of military flying. And it was scary.
Doesn't matter what the equipment fit is on the aircraft...
He's new to the aircraft, clearly under training...
He took the safest option and removed the hazard to human life by landing immediately...
Now convince me that what he did was worthy of your derisory words.
With all that equipment on board Rich I'm surprised he didn't have a fog horn too
Of course he did the right thing - he's made of the right stuff isn't he?
Bit embarrassing though to say the least. Hope they made him stand guard until it cleared.
Avoid imitations
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Been there, done that and the old saying "better to be down here wishing I was up there" than vice versa is always true where fog is concerned.
I can't land in fog either and I'll wager my aircraft is a fair bit more capable than TC's.
Perhaps this is just a wind up or he has developed X-Ray eyes from staring at his computer screen for too long
I can't land in fog either and I'll wager my aircraft is a fair bit more capable than TC's.
Perhaps this is just a wind up or he has developed X-Ray eyes from staring at his computer screen for too long
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Sorry, I'm not buying it.
These guys were mil pilots flying multimillion-dollar mil helos not PPL's flying R22's.
They ended up parking Apaches at the side of the Interstate.
Sure weather can close in quick. Sure good call AFTER they'd gotten themselves in that position. BUT, they shouldn't have gotten that far in the first place.
Didn't they plan diversion airfields?
Nashville International is only a couple of minutes about 15 nm S from where they put down on the Interstate.
They screwed up just like any of us can some time and they did good not carrying on and I'm sorry for them, but heroes they ain't. They screwed up.
These guys were mil pilots flying multimillion-dollar mil helos not PPL's flying R22's.
They ended up parking Apaches at the side of the Interstate.
Sure weather can close in quick. Sure good call AFTER they'd gotten themselves in that position. BUT, they shouldn't have gotten that far in the first place.
Didn't they plan diversion airfields?
Nashville International is only a couple of minutes about 15 nm S from where they put down on the Interstate.
They screwed up just like any of us can some time and they did good not carrying on and I'm sorry for them, but heroes they ain't. They screwed up.
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Discretion is the better part of valor.
I was driving through Idaho on my way to Seattle and looking down the road which had a slight downward slope I spotted a lot of police cars and a few civilian cars about a half a mile down slope. When I arrived at the group of cars I was surprised to see two Piper Malibu’s’ parked off the road. I was a bit confused by this sight but I kept on driving. Upon my return through the same area I stopped at the Sheriffs’ office and inquired as to the two airplanes. He told me that it happens quite often. Aircraft would call into the local ATC and advise them that the fog level was too high and the mountains were buried somewhere in the fog bank. The ATC would call the Sheriffs’ office and they would block off highway 90 allowing the aircraft to land unrestricted on the highway.
Hey Bronx......
If we use your standards....I am just one big screw-up!
I have parked helicopters all over this great land of ours....one can only push so hard to get through and then it gets to be time to park. I have been so lost that it took walking to the street corner to read the street names before I could find myself. The Pacific Northwest can be a bit challenging for the "Get after it" types.
Personally, I prefer Pub parking lots in the UK to Walmarts and Interstate medians....however when it gets foggy....and by foggy I mean when you cannot hover up the pole or tower and cross over to the other side to hover back down....well it just means it is time to park.
I would never accuse these guys of using poor judgement....the US Army littered Vietnam with Hueys due to accidents caused by flying in bad weather. Inexperienced crews and bad weather are a rather fatal combination I think.
If we use your standards....I am just one big screw-up!
I have parked helicopters all over this great land of ours....one can only push so hard to get through and then it gets to be time to park. I have been so lost that it took walking to the street corner to read the street names before I could find myself. The Pacific Northwest can be a bit challenging for the "Get after it" types.
Personally, I prefer Pub parking lots in the UK to Walmarts and Interstate medians....however when it gets foggy....and by foggy I mean when you cannot hover up the pole or tower and cross over to the other side to hover back down....well it just means it is time to park.
I would never accuse these guys of using poor judgement....the US Army littered Vietnam with Hueys due to accidents caused by flying in bad weather. Inexperienced crews and bad weather are a rather fatal combination I think.
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Don't be too harsh...
Exactly... these guys just saved a bit on our taxes by not balling it up. So, they shouldn't be villified. Hero's... perhaps not, but someone taught them good decision making skills.
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I'm afraid TCs comments are all to typical of ex RN Police Pilots (not all, but a lot) who think Military and not Civvy when flogging around the bazars - I have lost count of the amount of experienced pilots who a) get into situations their experience should not have got them into, such as flying into cloud, fog etc without a rating and then b) compounding the problem by not landing in the nearest field when they realise that IMC is imminent but flog into said weather at low level whilst frantically trying to dial up some one with a radar, settle down on instruments and worrying about that icing level... Step two is of course landing upside down some 45 seconds later....
TC would of course never do this - but a fair few do!
The Apache crew were spot on.
TC would of course never do this - but a fair few do!
The Apache crew were spot on.
Before "Ze Germans" get here
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Theres always someone who will make comments on others Judgement calls. It is sad to say that these idiots can often often make a safe pilot feel like they have made a less "Manly" call, and pressure an otherwise safe pilot to make unsafe decisions in the future for fear of looking over cautious. As a recently qualified low time Pilot I have had this, and yes sometimes maybe not the right decisions made on my part. If theres something that makes me feel uneasy I just say no. I'd rather go on the side of caution and be on the ground learning these things.
I think they made the right decision.
<<Edited, to remove remark mentioned below. Was not refering to anyone in Particular, just an attitude, sorry to have caused a fuss>>
I think they made the right decision.
<<Edited, to remove remark mentioned below. Was not refering to anyone in Particular, just an attitude, sorry to have caused a fuss>>
Last edited by My names Turkish; 9th Nov 2003 at 02:40.
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I would hope that TC's comments are simply a wind up, and I think SASLESS is spot on. Anyone who's been there knows what it's like to have the seat cushion embedded.
Regardless as to whether the aircraft is legal to fly in civy airspace, in a jam you do what you have to. I don't think the Apache is known for its long legs, so perhaps they didn't have IFR fuel.
For Bronx
Having an airfield 15 miles away is useless if you're hover taxying along a highway; it could be over and hour away! And leaving the relative safety of the highway (masts etc) to strike off cross-country would have been riskier, IMHO.
I say well done.
LP
Regardless as to whether the aircraft is legal to fly in civy airspace, in a jam you do what you have to. I don't think the Apache is known for its long legs, so perhaps they didn't have IFR fuel.
For Bronx
Having an airfield 15 miles away is useless if you're hover taxying along a highway; it could be over and hour away! And leaving the relative safety of the highway (masts etc) to strike off cross-country would have been riskier, IMHO.
I say well done.
LP
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Turkish
Neither TC nor Bronx are idiots. Far from it. They're expressing opinions in a discussion forum.
No-one's suggested the two Apache pilots should have pressed on in bad weather. There is a suggestion, right or wrong, that they should have diverted earlier.
Neither TC nor Bronx are idiots. Far from it. They're expressing opinions in a discussion forum.
No-one's suggested the two Apache pilots should have pressed on in bad weather. There is a suggestion, right or wrong, that they should have diverted earlier.