UK Pilot Falling Standards
Winnie,
If you mean the departure/en-route/approach/downwind checks that we're taught over here, they are:
F - Fuel: Still on? Still got some? Any leaks? Still got _enough_?
R - Radio: Still on? Right Frequency? Need to make a call? Transponder transponding and is it the right number?
E - Engine: Still running? (
) T's and P's in the green?
D - DI/Direction: DI (if you've got one) aligned with Compass (hopefully, you've got one of them)? Flying parallel with duty runway (in the circuit)? Going in the right direction (on a navex)?
A - Altitude: Altimeter set? Still reasonably clear of the green/brown/wet bits? At circuit height/cruise altitude/cleared altitude/MSA?
If you mean is FREDA the buxom blonde miniskirted lass that needs checking out, that headsethair could be referring to, I don't know, I've never met her.
If you mean the departure/en-route/approach/downwind checks that we're taught over here, they are:
F - Fuel: Still on? Still got some? Any leaks? Still got _enough_?
R - Radio: Still on? Right Frequency? Need to make a call? Transponder transponding and is it the right number?
E - Engine: Still running? (
) T's and P's in the green?D - DI/Direction: DI (if you've got one) aligned with Compass (hopefully, you've got one of them)? Flying parallel with duty runway (in the circuit)? Going in the right direction (on a navex)?
A - Altitude: Altimeter set? Still reasonably clear of the green/brown/wet bits? At circuit height/cruise altitude/cleared altitude/MSA?
If you mean is FREDA the buxom blonde miniskirted lass that needs checking out, that headsethair could be referring to, I don't know, I've never met her.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Escrick York england
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
camp fredy
the time pressures on instructors are ridiculous, what other profession has so much work to do for so much time for which they are recieving no payment apart from the flight time.
when flying schools pay people properly they would notice the difference I think.
thats not the same at all flying schools i paid for ground school by the hour [also paid for g/school for fixed wing different school]
also to ali250
please dont blame the students for the way instrucors are paid they pay the rates that the school they enrolled in charge
how this is made up is up to them not the student
steve
the time pressures on instructors are ridiculous, what other profession has so much work to do for so much time for which they are recieving no payment apart from the flight time.
when flying schools pay people properly they would notice the difference I think.
thats not the same at all flying schools i paid for ground school by the hour [also paid for g/school for fixed wing different school]
also to ali250
please dont blame the students for the way instrucors are paid they pay the rates that the school they enrolled in charge
how this is made up is up to them not the student
steve
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh come on, pay's not that bad. F/w instructors' pay is, but not rotary (in the UK anyway). OK, suppose instead of £40/hr (approx) for flying, instructors were paid £20/hr for both flying and briefing/teaching checks, would that sound OK? And for every flying hour, I don't think there's more than an hour of other stuff, is there?
If you average, say, three hours per day flying (and three hours of briefings etc), 5 days a week, that's nearly £29,000 a year, allowing for a 48 week working year. Not brilliant, but not awful either.
If you average, say, three hours per day flying (and three hours of briefings etc), 5 days a week, that's nearly £29,000 a year, allowing for a 48 week working year. Not brilliant, but not awful either.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: North of the Border
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds like I missed out somewhere - when I was instructing a never made anything like that - £20k was more like it. Are instructors really getting 700+ hours a year?
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: the bump
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
md 600 driver
Ground school for exams or ground school for the air exercise? What I’m talking about and I think Camp Freddie is also talking about is the briefing for the flying lesson. Ground school for exams is chargeable and the instructors do get paid for that, well they do down ‘ere!
You also think instructors are under enormous pressure. Can you explain that?
Ground school for exams or ground school for the air exercise? What I’m talking about and I think Camp Freddie is also talking about is the briefing for the flying lesson. Ground school for exams is chargeable and the instructors do get paid for that, well they do down ‘ere!
You also think instructors are under enormous pressure. Can you explain that?
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bronx,
being paid properly means pay that is reasonable given the hours of attendance, I do not call £20k a year for about 60 hours a week being there reasonable !
ali250,
I am fully aware of how the school gets its money, just because there are many instructors working so hard for so little return doesnt make it right.
also dont lecture me on professionalism, i spent hundreds of hours doing unpaid ground school with students to give them all the tools to be a good pilot, I suspect I am at least as professional as you !
md 600 driver,
if your school doesnt pay like that great, I have not personally experienced it though, a retainer was the best I ever managed before I got a "proper" job, being proper is no reflection on the instructor I mean to attack the companys that use /employ them
I will not accept that poor pay for hard work is a good idea for anyone.
being paid properly means pay that is reasonable given the hours of attendance, I do not call £20k a year for about 60 hours a week being there reasonable !
ali250,
I am fully aware of how the school gets its money, just because there are many instructors working so hard for so little return doesnt make it right.
also dont lecture me on professionalism, i spent hundreds of hours doing unpaid ground school with students to give them all the tools to be a good pilot, I suspect I am at least as professional as you !
md 600 driver,
if your school doesnt pay like that great, I have not personally experienced it though, a retainer was the best I ever managed before I got a "proper" job, being proper is no reflection on the instructor I mean to attack the companys that use /employ them
I will not accept that poor pay for hard work is a good idea for anyone.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Camp F
If you're paid by the hour, you're paid by the hour - period.
If you're self-employed and you don't have enough customers to make your annual income a good figure then putting your price per hour up don't see to be a very good way to get more customers.
Ain't price just a product of demand and supply?
If you're paid by the hour, you're paid by the hour - period.
If you're self-employed and you don't have enough customers to make your annual income a good figure then putting your price per hour up don't see to be a very good way to get more customers.
Ain't price just a product of demand and supply?
Does this accident report illustrate the point ?
Crazy Scandihooligan
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Damn, some mountain goat is nibbling my ear ;-)
Age: 52
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UK Pilot falling standards
At the end of the day, the responsibility of letting a pilot self fly hire at an establishment comes down to the establishment.
I know some flying schools that will not let you self fly hire a 206 unless you have 20hrs on type, or you get a safety pilot with you. Another school i know where if you arn't current on the type in the preceeding 90 days (i.e 5 circuits) you need rechecking.
Should'nt it be down to the flying schools to self police this issue of, who is safe enough to fly one of their helicopters.
I mean, have a set of criteria that have to met before the hiring pilot is allowed to self fly. e.g like having intensive emergency procedures instruction for the type. Autorotations to the ground, or at the very least to 10ft. ( on that note i understand that there are only certain instructors who are authorised to do a full auto to the ground?)
Would'nt this then safe guard the institution hiring out the helicopter and the pilot. Yes there is obviously a financial issue here, but flying never was cheap, so why compromise on safety for the sake of an hour or so, doing revisional training with an instructor.
As for the guys who own their own, it comes down to their own self judgement, but then most of the people who own their own have low hours and fall into the categories of "unconsciously incompetant, Consciously competant etc" and that can be a dangerous time. Between 400-1000 hours, must be a nightmare for the pilots who know it all, as that is when most accidents happen. (HASEL checks must be a hassel right?)
The whole idea of self regulation is a great one, but where does the buck stop. I think it also comes down to self-pride. (Have i filled in my log book correctly. Do i do a full DI on the helicopter before i fly? Do i know emergency procedures for the type of helicopter flown? When was the last time that i looked through my books that i used for my PPL/CPL exams, etc?
Back to the instructor issue, should instructors have more than 330 under their belt before they can instruct. It is obvious to see that an instructor that has say only 400 hours won't be able to emphasise to the student what an instructor of say 5000 hours will be able to, in the way of safety, drills, good airmanship...etc
MD 900 Explorer
I know some flying schools that will not let you self fly hire a 206 unless you have 20hrs on type, or you get a safety pilot with you. Another school i know where if you arn't current on the type in the preceeding 90 days (i.e 5 circuits) you need rechecking.
Should'nt it be down to the flying schools to self police this issue of, who is safe enough to fly one of their helicopters.
I mean, have a set of criteria that have to met before the hiring pilot is allowed to self fly. e.g like having intensive emergency procedures instruction for the type. Autorotations to the ground, or at the very least to 10ft. ( on that note i understand that there are only certain instructors who are authorised to do a full auto to the ground?)
Would'nt this then safe guard the institution hiring out the helicopter and the pilot. Yes there is obviously a financial issue here, but flying never was cheap, so why compromise on safety for the sake of an hour or so, doing revisional training with an instructor.
As for the guys who own their own, it comes down to their own self judgement, but then most of the people who own their own have low hours and fall into the categories of "unconsciously incompetant, Consciously competant etc" and that can be a dangerous time. Between 400-1000 hours, must be a nightmare for the pilots who know it all, as that is when most accidents happen. (HASEL checks must be a hassel right?)
The whole idea of self regulation is a great one, but where does the buck stop. I think it also comes down to self-pride. (Have i filled in my log book correctly. Do i do a full DI on the helicopter before i fly? Do i know emergency procedures for the type of helicopter flown? When was the last time that i looked through my books that i used for my PPL/CPL exams, etc?
Back to the instructor issue, should instructors have more than 330 under their belt before they can instruct. It is obvious to see that an instructor that has say only 400 hours won't be able to emphasise to the student what an instructor of say 5000 hours will be able to, in the way of safety, drills, good airmanship...etc
MD 900 Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: england
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of my students has just passed his ppl skills test.
Prior to his test we did several hours on EOL's, quick stops etc.
He is a very good operator of the machine (R22).
On the day of the test we did an hours revision prior to his test then off he went with the examiner
The examiner is an extremely experienced pilot, 35 years flying, ex Mil etc etc but in my opinion a poor operator of the R22.
My student passed with flying colours, great but following my discussion with the student afterwards on how did the auto's go, PFL's etc. They did'nt do any. They also did no Quick stops, sloping ground, vortex in fact no type of emergency at all.
They just went for a fly round for an hour and now he got his licence. I am completely happy with the standard of the student and will have no problem recommending him fom SFH.
This is not just a one off i know other examiners who are equally as useless.
Falling standards is not all down to the students / PPL's
Prior to his test we did several hours on EOL's, quick stops etc.
He is a very good operator of the machine (R22).
On the day of the test we did an hours revision prior to his test then off he went with the examiner
The examiner is an extremely experienced pilot, 35 years flying, ex Mil etc etc but in my opinion a poor operator of the R22.
My student passed with flying colours, great but following my discussion with the student afterwards on how did the auto's go, PFL's etc. They did'nt do any. They also did no Quick stops, sloping ground, vortex in fact no type of emergency at all.
They just went for a fly round for an hour and now he got his licence. I am completely happy with the standard of the student and will have no problem recommending him fom SFH.
This is not just a one off i know other examiners who are equally as useless.
Falling standards is not all down to the students / PPL's
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: SE England
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...which must beg the very simple question - how and why is this person still working as an examiner? Surely there must be a minumum standard laid out in JAR that a student must prove to an examiner that he/she has attained? In this case it is clear that Cyclic Flare has insisted on a thorough and competent standard in his student, but doesn't a student also deserve the chance to prove themselves at the culmination of a course?
My GFT (pre-JAR licence, but only just) contained, if memory serves, at least one of every type of emergency I had practised during the course and questions on some others. EOLs, PFLs, VRS recovery, sloping ground, engine failure in the hover, steep turns were all covered. I can't say I flew at my absolute best under test conditions, but I got out of the helicopter at the end feeling I'd been made to prove my worth.
I know it seems to go against the grain to rat on one's colleagues, but if this examiner is himself performing so poorly, then others must have noticed it too - surely someone must be in a position to stand up to him and tell him enough's enough?
Or am I missing the point?
My GFT (pre-JAR licence, but only just) contained, if memory serves, at least one of every type of emergency I had practised during the course and questions on some others. EOLs, PFLs, VRS recovery, sloping ground, engine failure in the hover, steep turns were all covered. I can't say I flew at my absolute best under test conditions, but I got out of the helicopter at the end feeling I'd been made to prove my worth.
I know it seems to go against the grain to rat on one's colleagues, but if this examiner is himself performing so poorly, then others must have noticed it too - surely someone must be in a position to stand up to him and tell him enough's enough?
Or am I missing the point?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DBChopper,
Yes, what should be in a GFT is prescribed fairly rigidly in JAR FCL, and then repeated on the form that the examiner has to complete. I cannot see any justification for this approach by an examiner, but which student/pilot being tested is going to report him, if they are passed by the "examiner"?
Yes, what should be in a GFT is prescribed fairly rigidly in JAR FCL, and then repeated on the form that the examiner has to complete. I cannot see any justification for this approach by an examiner, but which student/pilot being tested is going to report him, if they are passed by the "examiner"?
