Sick of Illegal practices
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Sick of Illegal practices
Is there a place/person/website where you can inform the proper authorities in the UK about people flying illegally. ie Pleasure flying without the proper certification/licence/aoc etc?
I know of two companies doing this and I think it's unfair for all of those people who have the correct licences looking for work. I imagine it would mean no insurance if an accident were to happen during one of those flights.
Views and opinions appreciated.
I know of two companies doing this and I think it's unfair for all of those people who have the correct licences looking for work. I imagine it would mean no insurance if an accident were to happen during one of those flights.
Views and opinions appreciated.
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There are any number of ways to contact the CAA and whichever one you choose, I suggest that's what you do.
You might imagine a CAA staffer told me they have even met people in pubs after work where the contact has to be discreet - I could not possibly comment.
You might imagine a CAA staffer told me they have even met people in pubs after work where the contact has to be discreet - I could not possibly comment.
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In the US we call that "dropping a dime" as in using a pay phone. just ask yourself what your motives are - You sound angry about the prospective employment opportunity lost because someone is a private pilot doing commercial pilot work.
No Champion of Justice would use that motive! The worst shellackings I got as a kid were "for my own good" and I'm not sure to this day that was true.
Are they unsafe? Is it a public endangerment? Those are the questions you might ask yourself, I think. If the answer is yes, then march on, and be right.
No Champion of Justice would use that motive! The worst shellackings I got as a kid were "for my own good" and I'm not sure to this day that was true.
Are they unsafe? Is it a public endangerment? Those are the questions you might ask yourself, I think. If the answer is yes, then march on, and be right.
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I have to agree with MD902man, I spent 50 f***ing thousand pounds getting all the licences and ratings to become a commercial helicopter pilot, and it really really really pisses me of when I become aware that cowboy PPL pilots are doing charters which I know they are, plus pleasure flying which I know they are.
In fact as I write this I am becoming more angry, they didnt sit at the dining table for weeks and weeks not speaking to their loved ones because they were studying for exams to join an exclusive club, they didnt go for months not earning any money while they were doing it.
why should they endanger passengers and steal food from my table which I should be earning instead of them.
In fact I would like to punch their lights out, every one of them.
(in a non violent politically correct manner you understand)
Mr Lappos, I am a little suprised that you seem to be condoning this practice, unless I misunderstood you ?
Mr md902man grass 'em up every one of the low lifes, go for it !!
In fact as I write this I am becoming more angry, they didnt sit at the dining table for weeks and weeks not speaking to their loved ones because they were studying for exams to join an exclusive club, they didnt go for months not earning any money while they were doing it.
why should they endanger passengers and steal food from my table which I should be earning instead of them.
In fact I would like to punch their lights out, every one of them.
(in a non violent politically correct manner you understand)
Mr Lappos, I am a little suprised that you seem to be condoning this practice, unless I misunderstood you ?
Mr md902man grass 'em up every one of the low lifes, go for it !!
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You may be surpised at the lack of interest which the CAA show in such things. I am told that unless you give them pretty much all the evidence yourself, they often try to discourage you from pursuing the thing, or at least exhibit no enthusiasm for it. I wouldn't want to speculate on the reason for this - you would have thought that was what they are there for, but they may have other ideas................
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Camp Freddie,
I really do not understand the infraction at issue. If someone is doing something stupid, or unsafe, then have at it.
If the motive is to chase someone down using Governmental auhority for economic reasons, then watch out. We are often attacked by our detractors as unsafe, noisy and cowboying. I'd think twice about rolling in the Feds for someone, it is like the monkey's paw, likely to deliver more misery to everyone, in the end.
Let me also ask, after you have turned the guys in, would you then get his job?" Would there be a job there?
Dont get me wrong, I don't condone them breaking the law, I just dislike sneaking around calling in the Feds. Think of all the posts about those neighbors who tried to lynch helo pilots citing unsafe flying and such.
I really do not understand the infraction at issue. If someone is doing something stupid, or unsafe, then have at it.
If the motive is to chase someone down using Governmental auhority for economic reasons, then watch out. We are often attacked by our detractors as unsafe, noisy and cowboying. I'd think twice about rolling in the Feds for someone, it is like the monkey's paw, likely to deliver more misery to everyone, in the end.
Let me also ask, after you have turned the guys in, would you then get his job?" Would there be a job there?
Dont get me wrong, I don't condone them breaking the law, I just dislike sneaking around calling in the Feds. Think of all the posts about those neighbors who tried to lynch helo pilots citing unsafe flying and such.
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md902man
I have mixed feelings about this one. First of all, how sure are you that the law is being broken? Although, chances are that any md902man in the UK IS the law.
This doesn't sound too sure to me. I do not condone law breaking as a rule, but just because your breaking the law does not mean your doing something wrong. We all break some law or other everyday (eg; speeding, jaywalking). There isn't an operator in the US that doesn't enter that "grey area" from time to time, where he interprets the law one way and the Feds interpret it another.
You'll probably get more satisfaction and results by informing the clients of those you percieve operating illegally, than going to the authorities.
I have mixed feelings about this one. First of all, how sure are you that the law is being broken? Although, chances are that any md902man in the UK IS the law.
I imagine it would mean no insurance if an accident were to happen during one of those flights.
You'll probably get more satisfaction and results by informing the clients of those you percieve operating illegally, than going to the authorities.
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It is not often that I feel to take issue with Nick Lappos, however, on this occasion I would ask Nick to review fully what has been asked and what he has stated.
The original posting made the following referral to insurance.
..”I imagine it would mean no insurance if an accident were to happen during one of those flights.”
A close friend of mine was severely injured whilst as a passenger in a helicopter accident. Without elaborating the extent of his injuries, he is not able to speak, will always need to be hand-fed, will always be confined to a wheelchair and requires constant extensive nursing. Because the operator and pilot of the helicopter were not properly authorised or licensed for the type of operation they carried out, their insurance was invalid. To make matters worse, the personal life insurance of this friend had small print exclusion clause that invalidating their commitment as it was not a proper licensed operator. The only course of action left was to personally sue the operator and pilot. When this legal net was closing in on this the operator, they went into voluntary liquidation. Only to re-emerge some few months later with a company name change and slight change in director structure. They are not now able to be financially pursued. My friend had chartered this helicopter believing that it was properly licensed and authorised for this. Externally, this operator had given all the impressions of a proper charter operator. From being a successful business man this friend and his family are now struggling to say the very least.
Nick, in your reply postings you stated:
“..I really do not understand the infraction at issue. If someone is doing something stupid, or unsafe, then have at it.”
“.. Are they unsafe? Is it a public endangerment?”
Putting to one side the question of safety, I would say that it is definitely a public endangerment.
I am sure that if Nick had a close friend that had gone through all this, his views might somewhat be altered.
To any ‘invalidated cowboy operators or pilots’ out there, I simply ask you to consider if you could have something like this on your conscience for the rest of your life.
If only these ‘cowboy’ operators would put the same effort into becoming properly authorised as they do in deceiving the general public our industry would be a lot better.
T.G.
The original posting made the following referral to insurance.
..”I imagine it would mean no insurance if an accident were to happen during one of those flights.”
A close friend of mine was severely injured whilst as a passenger in a helicopter accident. Without elaborating the extent of his injuries, he is not able to speak, will always need to be hand-fed, will always be confined to a wheelchair and requires constant extensive nursing. Because the operator and pilot of the helicopter were not properly authorised or licensed for the type of operation they carried out, their insurance was invalid. To make matters worse, the personal life insurance of this friend had small print exclusion clause that invalidating their commitment as it was not a proper licensed operator. The only course of action left was to personally sue the operator and pilot. When this legal net was closing in on this the operator, they went into voluntary liquidation. Only to re-emerge some few months later with a company name change and slight change in director structure. They are not now able to be financially pursued. My friend had chartered this helicopter believing that it was properly licensed and authorised for this. Externally, this operator had given all the impressions of a proper charter operator. From being a successful business man this friend and his family are now struggling to say the very least.
Nick, in your reply postings you stated:
“..I really do not understand the infraction at issue. If someone is doing something stupid, or unsafe, then have at it.”
“.. Are they unsafe? Is it a public endangerment?”
Putting to one side the question of safety, I would say that it is definitely a public endangerment.
I am sure that if Nick had a close friend that had gone through all this, his views might somewhat be altered.
To any ‘invalidated cowboy operators or pilots’ out there, I simply ask you to consider if you could have something like this on your conscience for the rest of your life.
If only these ‘cowboy’ operators would put the same effort into becoming properly authorised as they do in deceiving the general public our industry would be a lot better.
T.G.
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I can't believe we are even discussing this, If you went on Holiday on your Boeing 737 and it turned out that either or both of the pilots were not correctly licenced you would expect the CAA to take action against the individuals and the airline.
What is the difference ?
there is no difference !
Shop the B***ards, miserable scum every one of them.
What is the difference ?
there is no difference !
Shop the B***ards, miserable scum every one of them.
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To Camp Freddie and Toppled Gyro.
I appreciate your comments and find myself in a position where I feel I will gather the necessary evidence (maybe in the form of video evidence with a scanner on in the background perhaps?).
and then hand it in to the necessary authorities.
Like many others I also spent a fair amount of money becoming licensed but that is not my motivation for doing this. As Toppled Gyro points out, innocent people suffer! If I wish to continue working in the helo environment I think we all have a duty to keep it safe for not only ourselves but the public who may be taking their first (and only) trip in a helicopter.
Notar fan:
I can't possibly comment on my present employment status!
I appreciate your comments and find myself in a position where I feel I will gather the necessary evidence (maybe in the form of video evidence with a scanner on in the background perhaps?).
and then hand it in to the necessary authorities.
Like many others I also spent a fair amount of money becoming licensed but that is not my motivation for doing this. As Toppled Gyro points out, innocent people suffer! If I wish to continue working in the helo environment I think we all have a duty to keep it safe for not only ourselves but the public who may be taking their first (and only) trip in a helicopter.
Notar fan:
I can't possibly comment on my present employment status!
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Mr md902man,
I surely hope you do report them if they are not guilty they will rightly put up a legitimate defence.
everyone knows it is going on and yet a malaise exists where people just let it happen.
the PPL guys who often do the flying are well known for it, and yet only circumstantial evidence exists.
dont be put off by the fact that you have to collect evidence, I believe it is worth it and I would do the same.
good luck
CF
I surely hope you do report them if they are not guilty they will rightly put up a legitimate defence.
everyone knows it is going on and yet a malaise exists where people just let it happen.
the PPL guys who often do the flying are well known for it, and yet only circumstantial evidence exists.
dont be put off by the fact that you have to collect evidence, I believe it is worth it and I would do the same.
good luck
CF
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A thought
You make a complaint to your local governmental aurthority, and they follow up. Now we all know that when a governmental authority knocks on the door we are in for a bundle of legal fees even if we are in the right. It is simply the process.
So, if you complained and the "scum" was operating in a perfectly legal and safe manner, are you prepared to be an honorable person and reimburse him for his bills?
You make a complaint to your local governmental aurthority, and they follow up. Now we all know that when a governmental authority knocks on the door we are in for a bundle of legal fees even if we are in the right. It is simply the process.
So, if you complained and the "scum" was operating in a perfectly legal and safe manner, are you prepared to be an honorable person and reimburse him for his bills?
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so mr diethelm,
based on your rationale nobody can ever report somebody unless they are prepared the pay the costs if they are wrong themselves.
firstly you would not report to the CAA unless you had reasonable cause I would hope.
I cant believe that people seem to be happy with some t***er flying there wives and children around who obviously has no conscience along with no licence and backed up by a crappy scummy helicopter company who endorse the practice in the first place.
you know I think next time someone I know has an operation I will see if it turns out OK, and if it does and the surgeon turns out to have been struck off or not be properly qualified, I will say "oh well it doesnt matter, the op went ok so no problem"
this is madness, only in the helicopter business would we put up with this s**t.
thats it now I am not adding to this thread any more, the answer is so obvious I cant say it anymore !
based on your rationale nobody can ever report somebody unless they are prepared the pay the costs if they are wrong themselves.
firstly you would not report to the CAA unless you had reasonable cause I would hope.
I cant believe that people seem to be happy with some t***er flying there wives and children around who obviously has no conscience along with no licence and backed up by a crappy scummy helicopter company who endorse the practice in the first place.
you know I think next time someone I know has an operation I will see if it turns out OK, and if it does and the surgeon turns out to have been struck off or not be properly qualified, I will say "oh well it doesnt matter, the op went ok so no problem"
this is madness, only in the helicopter business would we put up with this s**t.
thats it now I am not adding to this thread any more, the answer is so obvious I cant say it anymore !
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Go get 'em 902 man.
If they are taking short cuts on licenses etc, what other short cuts are they taking? - maintainance, hour logging?
The CAA should take keener steps to nip this sort of thing in the bud before more accidents happen and the helicopter industry takes another slating from the press.
The CAA set up so many hurdles for getting a licence / AOC and charge so much for the privilage, they should protect the honest part of the industry from the cowboys.
If they are taking short cuts on licenses etc, what other short cuts are they taking? - maintainance, hour logging?
The CAA should take keener steps to nip this sort of thing in the bud before more accidents happen and the helicopter industry takes another slating from the press.
The CAA set up so many hurdles for getting a licence / AOC and charge so much for the privilage, they should protect the honest part of the industry from the cowboys.
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I would certainly go for them - the paying public have a right to expect people taking them up for money are properly licenced, etc etc - I would certainly expect it of any airline, as mentioned above.
However, be aware that the CAA would untilmately be powerless as most of the legislation is possibly invalid anyway - certainly there is no provision in the Civil Aviation Act to allocate money for the investigation of "crimes" by the CAA. Probably getting the Air Transport Licensing boys in would be more effective.
Phil
However, be aware that the CAA would untilmately be powerless as most of the legislation is possibly invalid anyway - certainly there is no provision in the Civil Aviation Act to allocate money for the investigation of "crimes" by the CAA. Probably getting the Air Transport Licensing boys in would be more effective.
Phil
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MD902Man:
Let us not get our knickers in a knot. My belief is that everyone should be responsible for their own actions. If someone is breaking the rules they should be fined, put out of business or whatever the appropriate sanctions should be. Clearly no one on this forum would condone illegal or unsafe operations.
However, if one makes a bogus claim that turns out to be wrong, why should the safe and responsible operator and in the end his customers be required to pay for that?
Let us not get our knickers in a knot. My belief is that everyone should be responsible for their own actions. If someone is breaking the rules they should be fined, put out of business or whatever the appropriate sanctions should be. Clearly no one on this forum would condone illegal or unsafe operations.
However, if one makes a bogus claim that turns out to be wrong, why should the safe and responsible operator and in the end his customers be required to pay for that?
), let us know how you get on, eh?
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Notar Fan
It's OK, I will do your research for you!
There are two N-reg corporate Explorers in the UK, both rather early MD900 examples, I might add. One of them (which was at Helitech in the static display) was chalked up for replacement by a shiny new 902, but the owner's companies are not in a good way at the moment... his 900 seems to currently be leased to another corporate owner who recently sold his 600N.
The other one, which featured in the latest Bond movie, also replaced a 600N.
It's OK, I will do your research for you!
There are two N-reg corporate Explorers in the UK, both rather early MD900 examples, I might add. One of them (which was at Helitech in the static display) was chalked up for replacement by a shiny new 902, but the owner's companies are not in a good way at the moment... his 900 seems to currently be leased to another corporate owner who recently sold his 600N.
The other one, which featured in the latest Bond movie, also replaced a 600N.
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Md,
I was going to PM you, but It seems I cannot so here is a short note,
Not far from me there is a man who runs severel helis(not his) he is larger than life and very up front, even when caught with the equivelant of a " Ringed Motor"(if you get my meaning) the CAA did nothing about the rest of his ops, so it seems that they opt for the quiet life and only get really messy when there are limbs on the fields
I was going to PM you, but It seems I cannot so here is a short note,
Not far from me there is a man who runs severel helis(not his) he is larger than life and very up front, even when caught with the equivelant of a " Ringed Motor"(if you get my meaning) the CAA did nothing about the rest of his ops, so it seems that they opt for the quiet life and only get really messy when there are limbs on the fields
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diethelm
If somebody reported the company I work for for suspected illegal public transport to the CAA, and as a consequence my CAA FOI(H) turned up on my doorstep demanding to know what was going on all I would have to do is produce the Tech Log pages for said dates, my legitimate AOC Cert., Pilots Licences etc to show that I'm afraid the reporting person was incorrect in their allogations and as such that would be the end of the enquiry. The CAA may keep a closer eye on the operation for a bit, but being legal operators there would be no problem.
If we had been operating illegally then we would fully deserve all that followed. My point being if I was reported by somebody and we had done nothing wrong it would be no problem in the slightest and cost nothing to resolve the situation, therefore if anybody has a concern about an operation they should report it and not just sit on it for the fear that if they are wrong they may have to reimburce the reported company. Illegal operators make me want to
as I have to jump through hoops, pay huge fees and go through constant inspections. Why should certain people feel they are above this 
If somebody reported the company I work for for suspected illegal public transport to the CAA, and as a consequence my CAA FOI(H) turned up on my doorstep demanding to know what was going on all I would have to do is produce the Tech Log pages for said dates, my legitimate AOC Cert., Pilots Licences etc to show that I'm afraid the reporting person was incorrect in their allogations and as such that would be the end of the enquiry. The CAA may keep a closer eye on the operation for a bit, but being legal operators there would be no problem.
If we had been operating illegally then we would fully deserve all that followed. My point being if I was reported by somebody and we had done nothing wrong it would be no problem in the slightest and cost nothing to resolve the situation, therefore if anybody has a concern about an operation they should report it and not just sit on it for the fear that if they are wrong they may have to reimburce the reported company. Illegal operators make me want to
as I have to jump through hoops, pay huge fees and go through constant inspections. Why should certain people feel they are above this