Heathrow again
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Heathrow again
When is the ATC at H'row going to sort out Heli procedures! How about a meet!
Today again in the cargo area with lose boxes ,tie raps and plastic bags. Do they want a Heli crash!
Unprotect rear with vehicles and ground staff walking around the machine whilst rotors turning.
Parked close to the buildings, so unable to get start clearence from delivery had to call ground and they got all arsy.
Taxi for runway departure behind 747,777 and other planks.
When will we get a simple Heli procedure!.
It cannot be that difficult!
Today again in the cargo area with lose boxes ,tie raps and plastic bags. Do they want a Heli crash!
Unprotect rear with vehicles and ground staff walking around the machine whilst rotors turning.
Parked close to the buildings, so unable to get start clearence from delivery had to call ground and they got all arsy.
Taxi for runway departure behind 747,777 and other planks.
When will we get a simple Heli procedure!.
It cannot be that difficult!
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Hi greenarrow
I hope that you put in a Mandatory Occurrence Report. If its as bad as you say, that will at least get the CAA boys taking a bit more interest. Then if a few more do it something might actually get done!
JKnife
I hope that you put in a Mandatory Occurrence Report. If its as bad as you say, that will at least get the CAA boys taking a bit more interest. Then if a few more do it something might actually get done!
JKnife
Gatvol
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Taxi behind a 747??? In a helicopter??? Dont you folks have a helipad/heliport operation.
I guess its the U.K., just live with it, but its much simpler when Helicopters and Airplanes dont mix. I work out of LAS which is Class B airspace and we never seem to have problems. Sounds like you folks have to have a sitdown with your ATC....
Good Luck, as an SLF at LHR, I know just the fixed wing side is so busy Im guaranteed a couple turns in the idiot circle every time I travel through there.
I guess its the U.K., just live with it, but its much simpler when Helicopters and Airplanes dont mix. I work out of LAS which is Class B airspace and we never seem to have problems. Sounds like you folks have to have a sitdown with your ATC....
Good Luck, as an SLF at LHR, I know just the fixed wing side is so busy Im guaranteed a couple turns in the idiot circle every time I travel through there.
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greenarrow
The first part - about rubbish etc/persons need reporting to BAA, the airport authority and or an MOR if you feel strongly about it.
With regards to the ATC operation PM me and I can put you in touch with ATC Ops at LHR and maybe even arrange a visit.
B Sousa...
No there is no Helipad as such at LHR! There is a heli aiming point south of the main runway on the taxiway at Block 97. However - it is not lit and as such the southerly runway has to be used at night - which means a gap of 6-8 miles if the landing runway.
I think this is due to the fact that a relatively small amount of helicopters land at LHR - but the BAA as masters of the estate should know more!
The first part - about rubbish etc/persons need reporting to BAA, the airport authority and or an MOR if you feel strongly about it.
With regards to the ATC operation PM me and I can put you in touch with ATC Ops at LHR and maybe even arrange a visit.
B Sousa...
No there is no Helipad as such at LHR! There is a heli aiming point south of the main runway on the taxiway at Block 97. However - it is not lit and as such the southerly runway has to be used at night - which means a gap of 6-8 miles if the landing runway.
I think this is due to the fact that a relatively small amount of helicopters land at LHR - but the BAA as masters of the estate should know more!
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The first thing to appreciate is that BAA are not interested in helicopters landing at LHR - they certainly don't want to encourage them. There is some sort of very limited maximum number in a time period.
The heli-aiming point is considered as "day-only". Even that is under threat because of a perceived hazard of wake vortex from the heavies - it makes no difference that there is years of experience of operating there without reported problems. Some sort of academic expressed an opinion that there was a risk. The CAA want further studies done, but they and BAA aren't proposing to pick up the tab. It is all discussed and then popped into the "too difficult" tray at things like LHR NATS & BHAB Meetings about London Zone procedures. Have a look at Rotorheads (the BHAB mag not this site), if you can.
At night, heles are not permitted to use the aiming point at all - they occupy a big slot on the runway and also get exposed to much more risk from wake vortex from heavies as a result.
This isn't an ATC thing at all really, it is imposed from elsewhere.
An MOR might be a good idea re: the parking area, but there is always the risk that it could create a(n even more) negative response to helicopters from BAA.
The heli-aiming point is considered as "day-only". Even that is under threat because of a perceived hazard of wake vortex from the heavies - it makes no difference that there is years of experience of operating there without reported problems. Some sort of academic expressed an opinion that there was a risk. The CAA want further studies done, but they and BAA aren't proposing to pick up the tab. It is all discussed and then popped into the "too difficult" tray at things like LHR NATS & BHAB Meetings about London Zone procedures. Have a look at Rotorheads (the BHAB mag not this site), if you can.
At night, heles are not permitted to use the aiming point at all - they occupy a big slot on the runway and also get exposed to much more risk from wake vortex from heavies as a result.
This isn't an ATC thing at all really, it is imposed from elsewhere.
An MOR might be a good idea re: the parking area, but there is always the risk that it could create a(n even more) negative response to helicopters from BAA.
Last edited by Helinut; 2nd Oct 2003 at 21:00.
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Greenarrow
I think your complaint, and a fair one it is too, lies with the CAA and the BAA.
We try our damned hardest to give you guys the best service but the airport is too small and the space and facilities do not exist for helicopter movements. Reading between the lines if BAA had their way there would be no helicopters at Heathrow
This has nothing to do with ATC take it up with the airport authority.
Once again nothing to do with ATC
Some controllers may get arsy if they're really busy, but if you can get two way on 121.9 then why not on 121.97 it's the same transmitter/receiver.
I don't think BA would mind if we stopped T4 from moving whilst a helicopter departed or landed.
When BAA put their hands in their pockets, which ain't never gonna happen.
Believe me when I say every ATCO to a man thinks that heli's get a raw deal at LHR and that the procedures are a joke!
A cynical person would say that the procedures have been left difficult by BAA in order to deter helis from operating in
Idealy we need a helipad and facilities off the airport, maybe to the south of T4
I think your complaint, and a fair one it is too, lies with the CAA and the BAA.
We try our damned hardest to give you guys the best service but the airport is too small and the space and facilities do not exist for helicopter movements. Reading between the lines if BAA had their way there would be no helicopters at Heathrow
Today again in the cargo area with lose boxes ,tie raps and plastic bags. Do they want a Heli crash!
Unprotect rear with vehicles and ground staff walking around the machine whilst rotors turning.
Parked close to the buildings, so unable to get start clearence from delivery had to call ground and they got all arsy.
Taxi for runway departure behind 747,777 and other
planks.
planks.
When will we get a simple Heli procedure!.
Believe me when I say every ATCO to a man thinks that heli's get a raw deal at LHR and that the procedures are a joke!
A cynical person would say that the procedures have been left difficult by BAA in order to deter helis from operating in
Idealy we need a helipad and facilities off the airport, maybe to the south of T4
Granted it's not "right next to the airport but is Hayes Heliport too far away for people to not get the kudos of "landing at Heathrow in a heli" - by which I mean the passengers, not the pilots !
Maybe they should rename it London Heliport ( a la London Luton / London Stansted ).
Maybe they should rename it London Heliport ( a la London Luton / London Stansted ).
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Of course, there is a heliport about 3/4 mile north of the airport - Hayes, now more or less disused, and not available for general use. However, I will take bets it will become a warehouse within the next two years.
The sort of SLF that we carry to LHR want to be "on-airport" - it can take an age to get from Hayes to a terminal building, which voids the whole point of using the helicopter in the first place.
You only need to look at Gatwick to see BAA's views on helicopters at their airports - they pulled the aiming point completely! Unless you pay for a full slot you can't get in. The nearest location now is a hotel site or the car park of a museum!
The sort of SLF that we carry to LHR want to be "on-airport" - it can take an age to get from Hayes to a terminal building, which voids the whole point of using the helicopter in the first place.
You only need to look at Gatwick to see BAA's views on helicopters at their airports - they pulled the aiming point completely! Unless you pay for a full slot you can't get in. The nearest location now is a hotel site or the car park of a museum!
Last edited by Helinut; 2nd Oct 2003 at 18:37.
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Helinut, when I last checked, quite recently, it was a max of 2 helicopters per hour allowed to land at LHR, handy if you've got a multi helicopter task!
Does anyone think the idea would ever be entertained to have a small plot of land at LHR to be dedicated to heli-ops that could be run by a private entity, obviously with the aircraft under ATC control, and paying for slots/landing fees, but that keeps helicopters clear of the planks, allows for easy arrivals/departures for the helicopters (from/to the south?) and more than 2 per hour and it would appear most importantly lands the pax at LHR so they can be picked up swiftly by one of the handling agents and whisked to their desired terminal?
Or has this all been discussed to death with the relevant authorities already
Does anyone think the idea would ever be entertained to have a small plot of land at LHR to be dedicated to heli-ops that could be run by a private entity, obviously with the aircraft under ATC control, and paying for slots/landing fees, but that keeps helicopters clear of the planks, allows for easy arrivals/departures for the helicopters (from/to the south?) and more than 2 per hour and it would appear most importantly lands the pax at LHR so they can be picked up swiftly by one of the handling agents and whisked to their desired terminal?
Or has this all been discussed to death with the relevant authorities already
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Tg,
It is a nice idea but I am not sure that it would run. Land is at a premium in the area of LHR. If there was any spare, you could probably make more money running a McDonald's than a heliport....
Anyway, I hear that they are thinking about another runway for PLANKS
It is a nice idea but I am not sure that it would run. Land is at a premium in the area of LHR. If there was any spare, you could probably make more money running a McDonald's than a heliport....
Anyway, I hear that they are thinking about another runway for PLANKS
Gatvol
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Interesting stories. Much different than what Im used to seeing. I have always worked in an enviornment of co-existance of Airplanes and Helicopters. Helicopters have been a means for Execs, VIPS, Medevac and yes sometimes ordinary people; to get into major hubs for continuation of their trips. The co-existance is maintained by Helicopters avoiding the flow of fixed wing (unless on Instrument Approach) Most major hubs here, have seperate routing for VFR Arrivals and Departures. It should work in other countries?
I guess this falls into the licensing issue in the U.K.; still bogged down in volumes of regulations, paperwork and expenses that dont seem necessary.....
Good Luck folks.
I guess this falls into the licensing issue in the U.K.; still bogged down in volumes of regulations, paperwork and expenses that dont seem necessary.....
Good Luck folks.
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Thanks for the words of advice. I have sent the MOR. Bet it gets lost in the system!
Back in again to H'row later in the month,(no dates can not afford the hassle!). But lets hope the procedures are better(some hope).
I will take a camera this time. Might get some intresting photos of the arse end of a RB211.
Back in again to H'row later in the month,(no dates can not afford the hassle!). But lets hope the procedures are better(some hope).
I will take a camera this time. Might get some intresting photos of the arse end of a RB211.
