Spanish ATC ** RANT ***
 

Why is it that every time I fly to Spain these days I must:
-Follow the full arrival procedure
-Hold
-Have a slot
-Be in the slot window for pushback but be denied to go
-Follow full SID out again

What a waste of time/ fuel / nerves!! Hold, but we can't give you an EFC time. Oh yes, 4 runways in madrid, but 30 minutes of holding?? In the last year, i've done 1 ONE single lap going into Gatwick! And they have one single runway!

Everywhere else in europe a slot window exists, 5 min before to 10 min after, but spain?? And when I argue on the radio, (I know I shouldn't) I'm told, ATC's discretion mano.

Other day into Malaga, with a Spanish colleague no less, they left us super high on approach, and then a low speed limit of course, so oh good times on the stable approach criteria. Slot at 1118, so allowed to start at 1113, and then finally airborne from 31 after some more faffing about, we had to fly the WHOLE Bailen 1G departure! Are you kidding me??? Severe CAVOK, nobody for miles around, but a "Direct to LOJAS?" was greeted with an ":mad: off and follow standard routing"... We were climbing through 10000ft abeam the field...

The said spanish colleague reconfirmed what I'd already heard. He's got two mates in Spanish ATC whos paycheques are in the 12,000euro a month range. (yes yes the base salary is 3000 a month but did you know that their overtime starts after 1250 hours in a year?) And they think they are the best controllers anywhere!! Hahaha you hombres (and ladies) need to get your heads out of your proverbial *rses and start doing your job. Your work ethic is absolutely attrocious, terrible for the economy, terrible for the environment, and a complete waste of the paying publics time. I'd rather fly to any other European country than Spain any day of the week.

Another problem the said spanish colleague mentioned was that ATC are untouchable. And there is the real problem. Arguing on the radio will only make my headache worse, so not much point in that. Is there any other method of action that can be taken??

Rant over, thank you for your time. You may now return to your regularily scheduled programming.

Also, for civil servants of a near bankrupt country to be striking over pay and conditions when they are amongst the most ridiculously overpaid (and least effective) ATC in the world is disgusting!

Here we go again! Where have you been hiding the past 12 months? I think you've been in your tent too long Herrstiffler.

Have to say I agree with Herrstiffler - this has gone on for far too long now - flying in Spain used to be a joy (!) but this scandalous waste of fuel and time should be sorted pronto!

How about swapping some of the controllers at LATCC or Maastricht say with those at Madrid or Barcelona? - we'd see some major changes within days methinks.

Spanish ATC, the world's greatest airfield denial weapon!!!

:mad:

I trust you're saying this tongue-in-cheek.

It would probably take 6 months or longer for an experienced controller from another unit to validate. Following which you would have to expect delays through LATCC and Maastricht due to staff shortages! :rolleyes:

HerrStiffler,
I think you should come and work in China for a few years, it will definately change your attitude to Spanish ATC, might do your blood pressure no good though.

I believe I raised the (Kunming?) controller's BP one night when we were westbound HKG to FKW in a B747 and had a line of Cb arise to our fore.
Although there was lots of China on the right and the Viet border some way to the left, we turned left towards a gap which appeared. The gap disappeared.

Upshot was that we got 'very close' to the border with the controller screaming at us to turn right or return to HK and us assuring him that we would do so very shortly.
We thanked him profusely for his services, wished him a very good night and neither of us went into print re the matter :ok:

Commuted to Madrid every two weeks for last two years. Spent many unhappy hours drifting round the countryside in CAVOK, no other a/c in sight, then zillion mile finals to the vast, empty wastes of Barajas with a choice of two ginormous, comically underused, parallels. All followed, frequently, by epic taxi-ins because landed on the wrong parallel for the terminal. At least at T1 you get out of the place sharpish, at shiny new T4 you park your life for about 90min before you're on the road.

Great city, wonderful country, absolutely charming people - with an awful, socially parisitic, ATC service.

This is Europe and has nothing to do with the appalling service provided by Spanish ATC.

Perhaps it is high time that some Phantom CB's appeared in Spain. "I need XXX degrees left/right due weather". If that coincides with a sensible direct routing, then so be it.

The latest game at PMI last week was an instruction to fly 210 until 10 miles. A polite refusal followed.

The best one I have had recently is the Corda 1v. We always do the whole thing towards ADX knowing full well a Nostrum/Iberia will come on frequency any second and get a direct Larul! Followed by "turn south"..."turn north" then direct IBZ all the time making room for the Nostrum to complete his shortcut for Corda.

It's no coincidence that Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are the only countries in Europe to go bankrupt in the last 200 years....Twice! Your attitude determines your altitude:hmm:

@tonker

SPOT ON!

You nailed it!

hetfield

Try being based in Spain and having to listen to these clowns.

Don't know how the have the morale to go into work everyday and try do the worst they can.

763, your method has already been tried. The first attempt led to success, but the second was firstly ignored, then told follow published route, then ignored again. It does lead me to wonder though:
-Can ATC "see" the weather on their screens? From the string of brand new terminals that have popped up around Spain, has their spending spree extended to perhaps the latest greatest machinery that displays ie. satellite imagery in real time?
-What happens if I request a heading due to weather, am denied, and follow route into the serious crap? Is ATC responsible for this decision, and with what implications?
-To further that thought, blatantly lying to ATC to get a turn is a can of worms I'm not sure I want to open up. I doubt it would stand up in court, and I'd imagine could lead to a loss of my IFR priviledges? Or fines or who knows what?

I've done southeast asia in a previous life, and there's a good reason I spent too much time / money / energy on a shiny green book. This is where I want to be. The spanish ATC need to get with the program like the rest of europe. Algy's experience says it perfectly!

Spanish ATC
 

I'm only a paper shuffler but flew into Madrid Barjas T4 yesterday and after being in the hold for 5 minutes when we got on the ground it seemed that not much was moving in fact not much there at all apart from the IB A340's and they had obviously been on the ground for a while, it seemed odd and now I know why.

Attitude vs Altitude
 

@ tonker

Forgetting Ireland, aren't you?
I cannot recall Portuguese ATC being compared to Spanish ATC in this Forum or anywhere else, for that matter.
Anyway, I can't find any relevance in this sentence... Because, if it had any, you would be flying in your country, at "Murdoch FL", i.e. below 100, wouldn't you?

Isn't Iceland in Europe as well?

1. Murdoch is an American citizen who was born in Australia:rolleyes:

2. Ireland has never been bankrupt(and has good ATC):rolleyes:

3. Your right Portugal's ATC has always been very good i find, and Faro works like clockwork.:ok:

Not knowing what I'm talking about clearly (as you'll soon find out), but isn't part of the problem that the ops for most airlines prohibits VFR? If they allowed VFR, couldn't you just cancel IFR when vis is good and just head for the field and shorten your approaches/save the environment/help reduce your blood pressure?

ATC in Madrid are the most shockingly useless group of 'professionals' I have ever had to deal with in my lifetime. Throw in the attitudes of the Spanish airlines who expect priority (and receive it 99% of the time) over all foreign carriers, and Madrid is undoubtedly an accident waiting to happen.

Spanish pride - ugh what a :mad:.

Hotel Tango, yes and no! I know it takes a controller these times to validate of course but feel that a few guys from LATCC down there would have it sorted within a few weeks a lot better than the current "work to rulers"!

Ladies and Gentlemen,
This subject has been covered in previous threads.
The problem is that Spanish ATC really do believe they are amongst the best in Europe.
They say that their basic pay is comparable to other European controllers forgetting that their T & Cs allow the uplift of several €100,000 in additional overtime pay.
They do not understand that their country is broke and propped up by North Europe.
They do not understand that tourism is their biggest hope of digging themselves out of the hole their leaders have dug.
They do not understand the world around them has changed and so must they.
All we can do is take a bit of extra fuel and play very special attention to TCAS and don,t let the incompetent Spanish ATC get to you.
As for comparing them with any other European country there is no comparison they are at the bottom of the table by some margin.
Fly safely.

Back in the mid 90s, the Farnborough Bac 111 was carrying out a trial south of Tenerife which required the aircraft to operate at low altitude over the sea (1000ft or less). When it became time to return to Tenerife South, they requested a 'VFR join with a run and break to land'. The Spanish controllers tried to get them to climb to an IFR level to be vectored for the ILS, but the crew declined. ATC apparently had no conception of visual joins with aircraft of this size, ( I don't know what class of airspace it is there) but eventually allowed it!
Footnote: the break was carried out at 500ft agl, but the pilot misjudged his first approach and had to go round!!

THINKS... How many of the moaning pilots on here have visited a Spanish ATC facility to discuss their problems.........

Heathrow Director, with all respect, if you knew what it was like in Spain at the moment you would not make a comment like this.

All the companies that operate to Spain are, I am sure, well aware of the situation but little can be done since this is a (very) "work to rule".

Given the membership of the EU I am surprised that no political representations have been made concerning the waste of fuel, time and the knock-on effect of increased duty times and the ramifications for flight safety.

I wish I could take you on a few flights to Spain to show you what we mean but sadly that is not possible.

Something I heard whilst on Approach into Madrid was an Air Berlin requesting the use off 33L for landing, at the time he was on the arrival for 33R.

Even though 33L was the main landing runway the request was refused with the response "sir, its not that 33L is unavailable but its the attitude of your company. Continue as cleared for 33R". :ooh:

Thats spanish ATC in a nutshell. Dangerous, unprofessional, no clue about what they do at any time and the biggest risk factor to aviation in spain. You better keep a good lookout at all times as they vector you right into other traffic without batting an eye.

What are you guys talking about. Spanish ATC is the best in the world!! :ugh:

Especially in Madrid! E.g.: they manage to give you take-off clearance 2 min after you're airborne! So far I haven't seen any ATC unit capable of doing that!

"Estacion llamando, repite su indicativo" After trying to check in for 5 times.

However their dispute over their contracts has got nothing to do with all of the above in my opinion. Everyone who says they're earning too much blablabla are just jealous. There is a lot more to the story than meets the eye. (public hate campaign fed by the government to unilaterally change conditions of service)
How would you feel if suddenly your company decides to pay you half the money or less and uses miltary force by royal decree to undermine your position?

For me they are 2 separate subjects. I am the last one to defend Spanish ATC, they are the worst ever! But they are workers with civil rights and if the government wants to change their conditions they should use the normal channels available as with any normal worker. But hey.... easy targets!

The point is taking the dispute out on us by refusing short cuts and flight levels and generally being annoying is not helping their cause...I believe it is helping the goverment because now we all hate them. The majority of controllers in Spain are actually good at their job, when they want to be! Better then Italians and Morocco anyway!

As I said earlier..keep up the good tactic Spain..your days are numbered.

http://ftejerez.com/courses/atc/index.php:D

Spanish ATC is on the top worse in europe!

The solution? RNP.
 

A few days ago heard a great conversation between spanish atc & the crew of a national airline based in the next country, slightly to the west.
Said crew asked for direct to some VOR only to be refused & instructed to follow flight plan route. Crew then asked to fly 3nm "offset right" due to safety. ATC refused only for crew to ask again followed by another very blunt refusal! Crew then asked to confirm the airway was certified RNP 10. imagine the confusion at this question, it took a while for the penny to drop, but eventually it was confirmed as RNP 10 &you can guess what happened next, they announced & turned for the 3nm Offset Right!! I can only imagine 3nm put them on a direct track to the previouse requested VOR!! ATC was speachless & I assume powerless. If we all did this then the spanish bullsh*t would soon stop. Unfortunately I didnt have the balls to follow the example. Pity really.

It's probably time to show this video again. These are Spanish "controllers" who are on duty:



Real professionals.

I like it. Will have to remember that come the summer season.