Is this legally acceptable in flight planning?
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Is this legally acceptable in flight planning?
If you were planning a flight from lets say LGW to Dubai aerodromes and no matter what source you tried , weather (TAF's ) for destination were unavailable on ground before departure, would it be acceptable to take fuel for Dubai and blast off saying to your cheif pilot I plan to fly to fly to eg Shiraz( Iran, enroute alternate) for which you have wX Notams etc and before passing said aerodrome obtain WX via RT from ATC for destination, then redispatch to original aerodrome?
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Sounds very acceptable to me.
If it is specifically DXB then the weather for Sharja would be a help as it is in the Dubai circuit! You could also carry fuel for Muscat and then you would have several alternative fields covered.
If it is specifically DXB then the weather for Sharja would be a help as it is in the Dubai circuit! You could also carry fuel for Muscat and then you would have several alternative fields covered.
From the ANO
43 The commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall reasonably satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off:
(a) that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available as to the route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any alternative course of action which can be adopted in case the flight cannot be completed as planned;
Notice in the preamble "reasonably satisfy" - perhaps an implication that one can use a certain amount of common sense?
It also says "weather reports and forecasts available"...
Further guidance is probably given in the Company Operations Manual.
43 The commander of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom shall reasonably satisfy himself before the aircraft takes off:
(a) that the flight can safely be made, taking into account the latest information available as to the route and aerodrome to be used, the weather reports and forecasts available and any alternative course of action which can be adopted in case the flight cannot be completed as planned;
Notice in the preamble "reasonably satisfy" - perhaps an implication that one can use a certain amount of common sense?
It also says "weather reports and forecasts available"...
Further guidance is probably given in the Company Operations Manual.
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If you have weather for a destination and a suitable alternate and sufficient fuel to cover both then it's my understanding that you are fit to fly. If you decide to change your destination whilst airborne then, provided you have sufficient to cover the above in respect of your new destination, it is OK to do so.
Where some skate to the edge of legality (and most certainly beyond the edge of airmanship) however is where they fuel plan & flight plan for a destination, eg Kuala Lumpur to Paris then 'divert' to London where they had planned to go all along, landing on minimum(ish) fuel. One such example at LHR in the recent past had so little fuel on landing that they asked to be towed from the taxiway onto stand!
Where some skate to the edge of legality (and most certainly beyond the edge of airmanship) however is where they fuel plan & flight plan for a destination, eg Kuala Lumpur to Paris then 'divert' to London where they had planned to go all along, landing on minimum(ish) fuel. One such example at LHR in the recent past had so little fuel on landing that they asked to be towed from the taxiway onto stand!
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Hul,
Yes it would be quite legal to dispatch provided you have 2 destination alternates that satisfy the applicable planning requirements. This is much the same scenario as dispatching with destination weather forecast to be below landing minima. You would of course need to carry extra fuel to satisfy these requirements.
The situation for using an en-route alternate because you need to dispatch with a lesser fuel amount requires that you utilize applicable weather minima for the en-route alternate and the destination. clearly you would need this information at the planning stage. If you did not have this information then you you could not legally dispatch.
common sense really, you dont want to find yourself running out of options.
Yes it would be quite legal to dispatch provided you have 2 destination alternates that satisfy the applicable planning requirements. This is much the same scenario as dispatching with destination weather forecast to be below landing minima. You would of course need to carry extra fuel to satisfy these requirements.
The situation for using an en-route alternate because you need to dispatch with a lesser fuel amount requires that you utilize applicable weather minima for the en-route alternate and the destination. clearly you would need this information at the planning stage. If you did not have this information then you you could not legally dispatch.
common sense really, you dont want to find yourself running out of options.
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Have personally used 'enroute re-dispatch' operating heavy jets for many years, and never had to divert. If done sensibly, has the prospect of saving substantial amounts of fuel.
Does however require good flight-following procedures to be established at the respective aircarrier.
Does however require good flight-following procedures to be established at the respective aircarrier.
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A hypothetical diversion question:
Just thinking back to your original question, what if you found yourself having to land in Iran (or indeed, another country which might be deemed politically unstable)? I'm not trying to make a political point here, but if you found yourself in a situation where the authorities in the country in which you landed wanted to "process" or identify the passenger and suddenly found wanted dissidents or indeed, ordinary subjects, what kind of problems would you find yourself in?
Does anyone know if any such diversions have taken place and in the absence of wanting to have a lengthy conversation with a bad tempered revolutionary guard, with poor English and a big gun, what do you do? Presumably the airline would be responsible and open to legal action?
Does anyone know if any such diversions have taken place and in the absence of wanting to have a lengthy conversation with a bad tempered revolutionary guard, with poor English and a big gun, what do you do? Presumably the airline would be responsible and open to legal action?
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akerosid,
Had this very same discussion with a carrier operating TriStar equipment, both -22B and -524B4 powered, over Iran.
Suggested to management that it would not be a good idea to dispatch the -22B powered aircraft over Iran due to the items you mention, and in addition, the MEA's involved (with an enroute engine failure)...were bad news.
So, in the end, routing over Saudi Arabia was filed, under these circumstances.
Some airline management folks see the light.
Had this very same discussion with a carrier operating TriStar equipment, both -22B and -524B4 powered, over Iran.
Suggested to management that it would not be a good idea to dispatch the -22B powered aircraft over Iran due to the items you mention, and in addition, the MEA's involved (with an enroute engine failure)...were bad news.
So, in the end, routing over Saudi Arabia was filed, under these circumstances.
Some airline management folks see the light.
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Getting slightly off the topic, but with all of those lovely sea level desert airports surrounding Dubai, why on earth would you want to go to Shiraz??? How would you know that you can satisfy the 6% missed approach gradient on the ILS and how would you actually plan to get out of there again......
Mutt.
Mutt.
In some parts of the world, TAFs may not be valid for a flight.
Usual cause is that the locals have gone fishing for the day.
If its en-rte or an altn, then cant use it.
In the case of no TAF for the destination, then we just assume its below landing minima for planning.
e.g.
- Second approach.
- A good Weather Altn
- Some holding if possible
- Suitable ETOPS coverage (if app).
Usual cause is that the locals have gone fishing for the day.
If its en-rte or an altn, then cant use it.
In the case of no TAF for the destination, then we just assume its below landing minima for planning.
e.g.
- Second approach.
- A good Weather Altn
- Some holding if possible
- Suitable ETOPS coverage (if app).
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I presume that you operate according to JAR. Though I have no idea what your OM Part A looks like (which should basically tell you whether or not such a proceeding would be legal), you might want to take a look at JAR OPS 1.297 (d)(2). This should answer you question.
If operating according to FAR 121, you might want to take a look at FAR 121.651
Thanks
fcit
If operating according to FAR 121, you might want to take a look at FAR 121.651
Thanks
fcit
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Getting It Together
We have a department known as "Flight ControL." It's staffed by paid certificated Aircraft Dispatchers who, as a last resort, would certainly not hesitate to pick up the telephone and actually call the DXB weather station, or DXB Approach Control, or the DXB Control Tower and get the required weather ...and get it to the operating crew. Eh? 
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GlueBall,
there is situations, when picking up the phone will not work. There is airports e.g. within France that are uncontrolled during the night. There is just nobody there during certain times (let alone that those nobodys donīt publish weather).
I agree that DXB, as an example, may be a little off the track, but the questions is absolutely legitimate.
Cheers
fcit
there is situations, when picking up the phone will not work. There is airports e.g. within France that are uncontrolled during the night. There is just nobody there during certain times (let alone that those nobodys donīt publish weather).
I agree that DXB, as an example, may be a little off the track, but the questions is absolutely legitimate.
Cheers
fcit
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The question was hypothetical - so is there a hidden agenda.
Some operators have been known to file for destinations with the sole intention of routeing to the alternate all along.
Airports close to cities hosting large sporting events spring to mind. CWL has had to turn traffic away in the past due to ramp capacity but operators have still tried pulling a fast one to get in.
It wasn't that long ago that certain UK carriers, when slots were restricted, would file to islands in the sunshine close to their true destination with the real one down as an alternate and then divert..........
Some operators have been known to file for destinations with the sole intention of routeing to the alternate all along.
Airports close to cities hosting large sporting events spring to mind. CWL has had to turn traffic away in the past due to ramp capacity but operators have still tried pulling a fast one to get in.
It wasn't that long ago that certain UK carriers, when slots were restricted, would file to islands in the sunshine close to their true destination with the real one down as an alternate and then divert..........
