Why do eJ and Go fly at 250kt below FL100?

[Engee73]

I think it is because the aircraft are only certified to withstand bird damage up to 250kts (no testing after that) and also that the risk of birdstrike (worldwide) is low above 10,000 ft therefore as EJ has suffered a few birdstrike problems it has been decided that safety is more important than the economy or expediencey and that is now the SOP.

I would prefer something like 'above transition' but hey, they don't ask me!

Seriously though is it that hard for a controller to ask for high speed rather than cancel speed seeing they seem to know (and have been advised) what we do?

If you have further issues about this why not contact the company ATCers who I'm sure would be happy to discuss work arounds.

in the meantime feel free to ask me to go fast!

NG

[sfomarc]

From a company stand point you are going to burn a whole lot less gas at 250 then at 300kts. Why go 300kts in the oposite direction?

[mainecoon]

birds+engines

nice idea iomapaseo

but to prove you wrong

nimrod (raf maratime patrol aircraft based on the comet(first jet airliner)) on departure from kinloss scotland due injestion of birds in i believe 3 out of four engines freinds of mine had fathers either injured or worse so think again about your turbine integrity

ps i was told whil'st working fishery protect aircraft that diving birds (oops) become blind in old age
we struck one of the such in our fk27 damage to starboard side after shredding by prop and also radome underside

ps if you route outside regulated airspace (in my case into the vale of york) more than 250 below 10000 is up to you it's in the aip so don't ask

[lomapaseo]

>nice idea iomapaseo

but to prove you wrong

nimrod (raf maratime patrol aircraft based on the comet(first jet airliner)) on departure from kinloss scotland due injestion of birds in i believe 3 out of four engines freinds of mine had fathers either injured or worse so think again about your turbine integrity<

I fail to see how this proves me wrong.

Aircraft at high speed and birds do not mix well

[Hippy]

mainecoon:

ps if you route outside regulated airspace (in my case into the vale of york) more than 250 below 10000 is up to you it's in the aip so don't ask

I've got to ask - Are you sure about that?

ps not related to canberra are you

[eyeinthesky]

Some odd assumptions from my ATC colleagues in places.

'No ATC Speed Restriction" means just that. You are not limited to, for example, 250 kts on departure from KK/LL. You can speed up if you wish to, but you don't HAVE to. Indeed, if speeding up means you will not make the SID low level restrictions or 'level by' expectations, then don't do it. Likewise, if you are given 'No speed' on arrival and then end up unstable on the approach, that is your fault, not ours! (This excludes ATC instruction to fly a specific speed (e.g. 160 to 4)).

The fact that many airlines accelerate to 300 kts on departure once derestricted should not mean we expect them ALL to and then get caught out when they don't.

Mainecoon: 250 kts below FL100 in Class G is the LAW, it is not 'up to you'! Like all these things, you break the law at your own risk.

Ref birdstrikes: Aren't you supposed to give way to unpowered aircraft?!

[outofsynch]

Re 250 below 10

Definitely a lot lest stressing, but a lot less fun too!

Having flown both sides of the argumnent b4 Go joined Easyjet SOP, I think it has more to do with stability of approaches etc. I have seen far less 'sweat' since we changed procedure, and as already said it makes stuff all difference in flight time.

What I cant understand, is why the restriction on departure/climb? When it could save quite al lot of time on some of the CPT departures and associated hold-downs.

I guess its just standardisation.

What amazes me is why ATC continue wasting radio time with 'no atc speed' when they know we can't increase?

[acm]

EGWW, your rate of climb at 300kts would probably be the same than at 250kts. Only the angle of climb will be affect. So if you want to avoid TA/RA you should control your V/S not your IAS.
What do we gain in term of time and fuel by flying faster than 250 kts below FL100 ? (1 minute maximum and probably burning more fuel)
Bird strike (square root of the speed ?) and encounter with VFR traffic is a bigger issue and that why 250 kts below 10'000 is a good SOP.
I heard that easyJet introduce this SOP after one of their aircraft had GPWS warning a couple of year ago in high terrain south of LPL, descending at 300 kts or above ?

[LordLucan]

As well as bieng a company SOP the airspace around EGGD is 250 kts < FL100 and that is non negotiable.

Sorry if it slows down you boy racers, however it certainly cuts down the number of rushed approaches FLIDRAS picks up and that can only be a good thing !

[Ace Rimmer]

Just flipping back to the FAA 250kt restriction. I understand that there was a trial going on at KIAH with the limit being raised to 300kt for departing a/c... something to do with improving flow or some such...anybody know what happened to that?

[Anthony Carn]

A large proportion of the time I don't increase climb airspeed when given "no speed control". 250 kt gives me a good rate of climb above the frequently present turbulence, however light or otherwise, in the lower levels. Any acceleration kills rate of climb almost dead for that period of acceleration. Cu clouds are a good guide. Above the tops, I'll take the "no speed" concession, though it's usually not even worth the effort of dialling it in by then, since PROFILE gives acceleration at FL100 anyway.

Operation from Heathrow, Luton and the like, which I don't do much of these days, is the exception, when acceptance of a longer period of poor ride during the early climb, in order to clear the inbounds, may well prevent a longer period of level flight in the self same turbulent lower levels. An even better option is the "give you a good rate" call which used to (still does?) get hot(ish) ships above the inbound traffic and the turbulence and may well mean LESS than 250kt for a quick "zoom"(energy exchange). Body angle, for comfort but mainly cabin crew, is the limitation in this case.

So my deciding factor is ride quality, basically.

Descent depends upon many more factors, not least getting the height off in these slippery modern ships.

All IMHO -- more than one way to skin a cat as the previous posts demonstrate.

[eastern wiseguy]

What amazes me is why ATC continue wasting radio time with 'no atc speed' when they know we can't increase?

Probably because the next guy in the line will ALWAYS ask "any speed control for the Midla*d xxx?" .We know the rules at LEAST as well as you guys and it does become a bit of a habit.

[NudgingSteel]

as a couple of people have mentioned, "no ATC speed" from approach control, means no requirement to fly a certain speed to fit in with our radar sequencing or vectoring - usually the traffic is light enough or spaced in such a way that the gaps on final will never get too tight. I know this comes up time and again, but the phrase doesn't override the 250kt requirements of the UK AIP. For example, Class E airspace round Belfast and the Scottish TMA is a see-and-be-seen environment in which VFR traffic (and fast jets occasionally not transponding) legally operate without speaking to ATC, and not always showing on radar. Therefore your 737 has to give way to the hot-air balloon or microlight at 5000' somewhere ahead of you... Consider this if you fancy keeping high speed all the way down!!!!!!

Also, by us not imposing a particular speed, doesn't this allow for a more efficient approach profile and/or slightly less cockpit workload?

[break dancer]

Isn't there something in the go/ easy manual about a requirement to increase speed to to 280 kts if turbulence is forecast for the departure, and being able to reduce to 250 kts if below MLW? Which SOP takes precidence, besides common sense.

Also, how long before FLIDRAS will pick up infringements of greater than 250 below 10,000 with disciplinary action to follow?

[Few Cloudy]

So what is different in the sky below FL100? (10,000ft for the States guys).

a) Traffic slowing for initial approach anywhere from Fl60 downwards.

b) Traffic off-airways being vectored or on a standard SID or STAR or positioning for one.

c) Lots of Indians - Navajos, Cherokees etc.

d) Helicopters.

e) Police flights.

Anyway - a lot of traffic. The same applies here as when you drive your car - the slower you go, the more time you have to get out of trouble. That is the basic reason why not only easy/GO but quite a lot of other airlines have the 250kt restriction. That is a company SOP.

Having said that, I can understand that the ATC have have me out past his holding stack faster (Lambourne for example) if I can speed up, then I can be given an earlier climb etc. If he has the situation under control and asks me - and the SOP allows for this case - fine.

The other case - the rapid descent - works well with all the drag that the airframe produces at high speed and if planned and followed up properly gives time to reduce speed for the final turn on. This also requires a hands on attitude by ATC - as the ship is descending into ever more populated airspace at high speed and rate.

My personal thought is that it is very satisfying (fun as one writer put it) to use the speed to get in and out but it is demanding of all involved. There are times to accept and times to refuse - you can't generalise - and the SOP allows for this.

A further thought is that it would be very useful for ATCs to be supplied with this part of airline SOPs, so that forum queries should not be needed.

[411A]

An even better idea is to get the ATC guys/gals in the aeroplane for fam flights.

And yes AVMAN, the invite is still on, date TBA...

[Bushflier]

250 below 10,000

Gulf Air also retricts it's ops at 250 below 10. SOP's
Fleet offices issue speeding tickets unless valid reason.

Good reasons for the limit, already mentioned in previous threads.

It's their aircraft!!