Is DHC-6 Twin Otter recognised as a Multi Crew aircraft by the Airlines?
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Is DHC-6 Twin Otter recognised as a Multi Crew aircraft by the Airlines?
Quite a long title I know. Does anyone have an opinion on this, as I am about to make a decision. Currently flying Single Pilot IFR King Air 90s. I want to get in the Airlines ie, jets someday, but I only have 50 multi crew out of 2200 multi. Any comments?
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Long answer - depends
Short answer - depends
The Twotter is classified as a single-crew aircraft by the CAA but is flown as a two-crew ship by a couple of airlines. For the purposes of MCC, a mate of mine was granted exemption because Loganair flew them 2-crew.
I think if you were to fly an Otter 2-crew (i.e., cap + f/o) it would be looked on more favourably than single pilot King Air hours, but that's just a guess.
Neither aircraft is a heavy turboprop, so you pays yer money etc.
Short answer - depends
The Twotter is classified as a single-crew aircraft by the CAA but is flown as a two-crew ship by a couple of airlines. For the purposes of MCC, a mate of mine was granted exemption because Loganair flew them 2-crew.
I think if you were to fly an Otter 2-crew (i.e., cap + f/o) it would be looked on more favourably than single pilot King Air hours, but that's just a guess.
Neither aircraft is a heavy turboprop, so you pays yer money etc.
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Disagree.
The DHC-6 is certificated as a single-crew aircraft, but operating rules both in the UK and USA require it to be operated two-crew.
All UK and USA airlines (and any states that have rules based on either the ANO, FAR, Overseas ANO or derivatives) therefore have to operate it two-crew.
Therefore for your purposes it is a multi-crew aircraft.
The DHC-6 is certificated as a single-crew aircraft, but operating rules both in the UK and USA require it to be operated two-crew.
All UK and USA airlines (and any states that have rules based on either the ANO, FAR, Overseas ANO or derivatives) therefore have to operate it two-crew.
Therefore for your purposes it is a multi-crew aircraft.
Controversial, moi?
A lot of what you say makes sense but the manner in which you say it is so abrasive and rude it incenses people.
I always thought the Americans had more manners than most.
Sheep Guts asks a perfectly reasonable question because he is trying to clmb the slippery slope to attain the heights that you have achieved and you talk down to him in such a condescending and patronising way that it made me, and I suspect others, see red.
I always thought the Americans had more manners than most.
Sheep Guts asks a perfectly reasonable question because he is trying to clmb the slippery slope to attain the heights that you have achieved and you talk down to him in such a condescending and patronising way that it made me, and I suspect others, see red.
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Take no notice of 411A. If he knows what he's talking about he's hiding it in a very cunning manner.
Having flown the Twin Otter for about 1000 hours in the right seat both abroad (Africa with a Swiss Licence) and UK (for Loganair) I applied to the CAA (UK) for an MCC exemption, and was granted one when my employers provided a letter to confirm that all training and operation had been as two crew. The CAA actually wanted 500 hours of 2 crew operation.
By contrast, the Swiss wouldn't, despite the same confirmation from the Swiss company.
But I believe that had the operation been single pilot (pilot and assitant) neither would be eligible.
Also, surprisingly, the CAA didn't charge for assesment or issue of an MCC exemption. So, in short , a phone call or visit to the Belgrano would be well worth the effort.
Having flown the Twin Otter for about 1000 hours in the right seat both abroad (Africa with a Swiss Licence) and UK (for Loganair) I applied to the CAA (UK) for an MCC exemption, and was granted one when my employers provided a letter to confirm that all training and operation had been as two crew. The CAA actually wanted 500 hours of 2 crew operation.
By contrast, the Swiss wouldn't, despite the same confirmation from the Swiss company.
But I believe that had the operation been single pilot (pilot and assitant) neither would be eligible.
Also, surprisingly, the CAA didn't charge for assesment or issue of an MCC exemption. So, in short , a phone call or visit to the Belgrano would be well worth the effort.
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Thanks for all replies. And theres nothing wrong with 411A's response, I didnt find it offensive, maybe because I am a thick skinned Aussie. I allready have command single pilot time on these machines aswell from a previous job so they are not alein to me. Looks as though its 50/50 as to their acceptability, from your responses. The position I have been offered is Captain, and the Comapny has ID90 etc. , so its the first time been offered that stuff as well. Thanks to all.
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If you're looking for a UK position, then I am sure that the jet hirers will be more interested in a 2-crew op (CRM and all that) than single pilot IFR time, despite 411s put down of the complexity of the type.
He seems to forget that 2-crew ops are markedly different from single-pilot ops, regardless of type, and that potential employers view them differently.
Who cares ? A Shed has 2 wings, 2 engines, and 2 crew. A 757 has 2 wings, 2 engines.. blah.
Thanks, 411, for reminding me why I don't bother to log onto this site very often.
He seems to forget that 2-crew ops are markedly different from single-pilot ops, regardless of type, and that potential employers view them differently.
Who cares ? A Shed has 2 wings, 2 engines, and 2 crew. A 757 has 2 wings, 2 engines.. blah.
Thanks, 411, for reminding me why I don't bother to log onto this site very often.
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El Desperado
Sorry you feel that way, but hey, the DH6 is really not a complex machine...under 5700kg (for our metric friends), the gear is "down and welded", no pressurisation, bit like a shed, shoebox with wings. The TCDS says "one pilot required", what more do you want?
I would think that an "airline" would look at a "single pilot" KingAir guy as much more accomplished. Corporate operators certainly would.
Sorry you feel that way, but hey, the DH6 is really not a complex machine...under 5700kg (for our metric friends), the gear is "down and welded", no pressurisation, bit like a shed, shoebox with wings. The TCDS says "one pilot required", what more do you want?
I would think that an "airline" would look at a "single pilot" KingAir guy as much more accomplished. Corporate operators certainly would.
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Hey Firestorm,
I am also in the process in submitting a letter to the CAA. Any chance you can email me the generic draft of your letter confirming two crew ops? I just want to keep things as simple as possible ...
Thanks
7 7 7 7
I am also in the process in submitting a letter to the CAA. Any chance you can email me the generic draft of your letter confirming two crew ops? I just want to keep things as simple as possible ...
Thanks
7 7 7 7
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To a certain extent I agree with 411A about a single-pilot Kingair driver showing a high degree of skill.
However, Multi-Crew Cooperation is also a set of learned skills. Loads of standard calls, more CRM, the division of who does what when, etc. etc. That the aircraft is relatively simple is not important. Someone who has flown it multi-crew has demonstrated that he has experience of working with another pilot next to him.
I went into the 757 course having never done any of that. As a result, the learning curve was a lot steeper than it otherwise might have been, and for someone on a first job on major machinery that slight levelling of the curve could make all the difference. Airlines want to hire people they know will make the grade, so every little bit helps.
An MCC course can only go so far.
However, Multi-Crew Cooperation is also a set of learned skills. Loads of standard calls, more CRM, the division of who does what when, etc. etc. That the aircraft is relatively simple is not important. Someone who has flown it multi-crew has demonstrated that he has experience of working with another pilot next to him.
I went into the 757 course having never done any of that. As a result, the learning curve was a lot steeper than it otherwise might have been, and for someone on a first job on major machinery that slight levelling of the curve could make all the difference. Airlines want to hire people they know will make the grade, so every little bit helps.
An MCC course can only go so far.
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I talked to the head of policy dept at LGW 2 days ago on this very subject and this seems to be the situation as far as JAR is concerned. each airline will no doubt be different.
All time on an aircraft(ie Cheiftan,B200 or otter) certified SPO under JAR when operated exclusivley on an AOC which stipulates 2 crew is considered to be time in a multicrew aircraft and should be logged as such. CAA will award a MCC credit to pilots with 500+ on such ac and/or count such time towards JAR ATPL issue.
Both pilots must be type rated however.
ie as I was left in no doubt that a fATPL holder with a valid multi/IR could not log any time as a pilots assistant. This I believe is the way LEA fly but I dont know if thier assistants are trying to log any time or not.
All time on an aircraft(ie Cheiftan,B200 or otter) certified SPO under JAR when operated exclusivley on an AOC which stipulates 2 crew is considered to be time in a multicrew aircraft and should be logged as such. CAA will award a MCC credit to pilots with 500+ on such ac and/or count such time towards JAR ATPL issue.
Both pilots must be type rated however.
ie as I was left in no doubt that a fATPL holder with a valid multi/IR could not log any time as a pilots assistant. This I believe is the way LEA fly but I dont know if thier assistants are trying to log any time or not.
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I hope I can shed some light on this topic. I am in the process of converting from ICAO to JAA ATPL. One of my concerns when starting was the MCC and what would exempt you from it. The school in the UK that I am training with have been very helpful/truthful and told me this......
Once the conversion is done you can apply for the MCC. All you need is 500+ hours multi-crew. The confusion lies in what "Type" of AC it is done on. The fact of the matter is there are many operators out there(many of which are in Canada) that operate single pilot aircraft with 2 pilots. This is done for various reasons. Insurance, contract stipulations, regulations (max number of pax single pilot IFR is 9 and the last time I checked a twin otter can carry 19 pax) Some do it with a typed guy as a captain and an untrained co-pilot. My company operates 55 single pilot A/C including DHC-6/BE20/BE10/BE90/BE99/EMB110. These are all flown 2 crew. Each pilot is type rated. CRM courses are taught. Our ops manual (a foot thick) is written for 2 crew ops only. This I have been told will suffice and the CAA will credit it as 2 crew time. The fact of the matter is that it is.
Hope this helps.
Once the conversion is done you can apply for the MCC. All you need is 500+ hours multi-crew. The confusion lies in what "Type" of AC it is done on. The fact of the matter is there are many operators out there(many of which are in Canada) that operate single pilot aircraft with 2 pilots. This is done for various reasons. Insurance, contract stipulations, regulations (max number of pax single pilot IFR is 9 and the last time I checked a twin otter can carry 19 pax) Some do it with a typed guy as a captain and an untrained co-pilot. My company operates 55 single pilot A/C including DHC-6/BE20/BE10/BE90/BE99/EMB110. These are all flown 2 crew. Each pilot is type rated. CRM courses are taught. Our ops manual (a foot thick) is written for 2 crew ops only. This I have been told will suffice and the CAA will credit it as 2 crew time. The fact of the matter is that it is.
Hope this helps.
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Oh, I almost forgot....
41111111A or whatever you call yourself. I have noticed you make many a bone head comments and your one about the twin otter is in that league.
Our pilots flying their little twin otters etc to the south pole in the dead of winter to rescue a doctor that not even the mighty USAF could not pull off tend to get jobs flying B737's, A320's, 67's, 57's 47's etc etc....need I go on? Air Canada likes em not to mention Cathay, Southwest and many more off the top of my head.
You should come up to the great white north and find out what real flying is all about. Then your opinion will matter.
Hands and feet, hands and feet.
41111111A or whatever you call yourself. I have noticed you make many a bone head comments and your one about the twin otter is in that league.
Our pilots flying their little twin otters etc to the south pole in the dead of winter to rescue a doctor that not even the mighty USAF could not pull off tend to get jobs flying B737's, A320's, 67's, 57's 47's etc etc....need I go on? Air Canada likes em not to mention Cathay, Southwest and many more off the top of my head.
You should come up to the great white north and find out what real flying is all about. Then your opinion will matter.
Hands and feet, hands and feet.
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Thanks again for all the rsponses, especialy Canadiankid, Captain Stable and BusterPlane. I am going with this now and making the Jump, Ive got stacks of SinglePilot KingAir , and Multi Crew is what I need. Thanks again all. If I ever need to get aJ AA ATP which is the only one left I need to get, an exemption on Mcc looks like saving me 2000quid, to boot.
Regards
Sheep
Regards
Sheep
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Canadiankid
No need to come up to the white cold north for the DHC-6. I was flying them in 1967 out California way. In fact, was DirTraining/Senior Training Capt for an operator that had thirty eight of the "Canadian Sheds", amoung other aircraft.
Good short field performer, thats for sure.
No need to come up to the white cold north for the DHC-6. I was flying them in 1967 out California way. In fact, was DirTraining/Senior Training Capt for an operator that had thirty eight of the "Canadian Sheds", amoung other aircraft.
Good short field performer, thats for sure.
