Descent in hold
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Descent in hold
hello,
quick question
if I am established in the hold, holding at a minimum hold altitude of 6000 feet, and then cleared for the procedure,
if the IAF is an ‘AT’ 4900 feet, when can I descend out of 6000 to be established at 4900 at the required fix? Is it when you cross the beacon the hold is based on to go outbound in the hold again (which also coincides with the AT 4900 feet, and is the point at which the procedure goes outbound for a procedure turn to establish on the ILS)?
thanks
quick question
if I am established in the hold, holding at a minimum hold altitude of 6000 feet, and then cleared for the procedure,
if the IAF is an ‘AT’ 4900 feet, when can I descend out of 6000 to be established at 4900 at the required fix? Is it when you cross the beacon the hold is based on to go outbound in the hold again (which also coincides with the AT 4900 feet, and is the point at which the procedure goes outbound for a procedure turn to establish on the ILS)?
thanks
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an example would be XMN ZSAM, ILS 05 procedural, the min hold altitude is 1800 feet, IAF is 1500 feet, overhead the beacon which the hold is also based on, and point at which you go procedure outbound
if you were at 1800 and in turn outbound in hold, and cleared for approach, could you descend to 1500ft? (I realise you may not have to and could maintain 1800 ft in this procedure until crossing the beacon to go procedure outbound, I’m just asking legally when can you descend below min hold altitude)
thanks
an example would be XMN ZSAM, ILS 05 procedural, the min hold altitude is 1800 feet, IAF is 1500 feet, overhead the beacon which the hold is also based on, and point at which you go procedure outbound
if you were at 1800 and in turn outbound in hold, and cleared for approach, could you descend to 1500ft? (I realise you may not have to and could maintain 1800 ft in this procedure until crossing the beacon to go procedure outbound, I’m just asking legally when can you descend below min hold altitude)
thanks
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Youre cleared for the approach so exit the hold and cross the IAF(XLN) at the required 1500m. The MHA of 1800M only applies holding over XLN.
Also have a look at the missed approach( cant seem to paste the chart from jeppview on here). You can turn left to XLN and climb to 900m then "as directed"
The MHA keeps you clear of other traffic commencing over the vor at 1500m or traffic on the missed approach climbing to 900m.
MSA is 6300 feet in that quadrant. But is way beyond the holding area.
Also have a look at the missed approach( cant seem to paste the chart from jeppview on here). You can turn left to XLN and climb to 900m then "as directed"
The MHA keeps you clear of other traffic commencing over the vor at 1500m or traffic on the missed approach climbing to 900m.
MSA is 6300 feet in that quadrant. But is way beyond the holding area.
Last edited by SW1; 17th May 2018 at 11:34.
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an example would be XMN ZSAM, ILS 05 procedural, the min hold altitude is 1800 feet, IAF is 1500 feet, overhead the beacon which the hold is also based on, and point at which you go procedure outbound
if you were at 1800 and in turn outbound in hold, and cleared for approach, could you descend to 1500ft? (I realise you may not have to and could maintain 1800 ft in this procedure until crossing the beacon to go procedure outbound, I’m just asking legally when can you descend below min hold altitude)
thanks
an example would be XMN ZSAM, ILS 05 procedural, the min hold altitude is 1800 feet, IAF is 1500 feet, overhead the beacon which the hold is also based on, and point at which you go procedure outbound
if you were at 1800 and in turn outbound in hold, and cleared for approach, could you descend to 1500ft? (I realise you may not have to and could maintain 1800 ft in this procedure until crossing the beacon to go procedure outbound, I’m just asking legally when can you descend below min hold altitude)
thanks
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It's 1,800 meters, not feet. I don't see where you are reading 1,500 meters. Attached is the Jeppesen chart for the Y ILS. (There is also a Z ILS, which requires RNAV.) If you are in the hold at XLN VOR at 5,910 feet (1,800 meters) once cleared for the approach you cannot descend below 5,910 until established on the 231 degree radial proceeding to XLN 7.3 DME. Once on the 231 radial you can descend to 2,960 feet (800 meters). You cannot go below 2,960 feet in the turn from the XLN 231 radial, 7.3 DME until rolling out on the localizer, at which time you can descend to 2,300 feet until intercepting the glideslope.
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Thanks for the the replies
it’s my understanding, as some have mentioned, that once cleared for the approach, you can descend to the IAF altitude, as the min hold altitude is only related to aircraft seperation and not terrain clearance, and therefore even if you are on the outbound leg of the hold (tracking 050) you could descend, (you do not have to be inbound to the beacon).
thanks
it’s my understanding, as some have mentioned, that once cleared for the approach, you can descend to the IAF altitude, as the min hold altitude is only related to aircraft seperation and not terrain clearance, and therefore even if you are on the outbound leg of the hold (tracking 050) you could descend, (you do not have to be inbound to the beacon).
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Thats correct Matt.
Although if youre outbound in the hold and atc clears you for the approach- immediate exit on the mcdu and the aircraft starts a left turn back to XLN. No need to waste time finishing off the hold- youre still in the protected area of the hold and that particular MHA is not due to terrain clearance.
You can even start that 1000 foot descent to 4930 whilst turning to comply with the altitude constraint.
Cheers
Although if youre outbound in the hold and atc clears you for the approach- immediate exit on the mcdu and the aircraft starts a left turn back to XLN. No need to waste time finishing off the hold- youre still in the protected area of the hold and that particular MHA is not due to terrain clearance.
You can even start that 1000 foot descent to 4930 whilst turning to comply with the altitude constraint.
Cheers
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I don't know of anywhere where it is okay to descend below the MHA until inbound to the holding fix on course. Sure, terrain clearance isn't an issue at this location, but it is nonetheless the charted minimum holding altitude.
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Aterpster. Agree with you partially but have a look at ILS Y 36L ZSSS its almost identical.
Yes you can continue in the hold and start your descent inbound to the fix.
This MHA is due to TRAFFIC. if youre outbound then its another 3 or so minutes before you cross XLN. ATC would be giving you a "direct XLN" (curtly) if you request to continue on the "published hold" until tracking inbound 050 radial. Hence my china comment. You are under radar control as well might I add.
Youre not the only traffic around going into Xiamen so he wants you on the procedure for his sequencing.
Yes you can continue in the hold and start your descent inbound to the fix.
This MHA is due to TRAFFIC. if youre outbound then its another 3 or so minutes before you cross XLN. ATC would be giving you a "direct XLN" (curtly) if you request to continue on the "published hold" until tracking inbound 050 radial. Hence my china comment. You are under radar control as well might I add.
Youre not the only traffic around going into Xiamen so he wants you on the procedure for his sequencing.
Last edited by SW1; 18th May 2018 at 14:26.
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Aterpster. Agree with you partially but have a look at ILS Y 36L ZSSS its almost identical.
Yes you can continue in the hold and start your descent inbound to the fix.
This MHA is due to TRAFFIC. if youre outbound then its another 3 or so minutes before you cross XLN. ATC would be giving you a "direct XLN" (curtly) if you request to continue on the "published hold" until tracking inbound 050 radial. Hence my china comment. You are under radar control as well might I add.
Youre not the only traffic around going into Xiamen so he wants you on the procedure for his sequencing.
Yes you can continue in the hold and start your descent inbound to the fix.
This MHA is due to TRAFFIC. if youre outbound then its another 3 or so minutes before you cross XLN. ATC would be giving you a "direct XLN" (curtly) if you request to continue on the "published hold" until tracking inbound 050 radial. Hence my china comment. You are under radar control as well might I add.
Youre not the only traffic around going into Xiamen so he wants you on the procedure for his sequencing.
As to ZSSS ILS Y 36L If I were parked in the hold at 3,940 and cleared for the approach, I would turn inbound in the hold immediately but not leave 3,940 for 2,960 until inbound on the JTN 181 radial or inbound on the ISH Localizer.
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I agree that I should turn inbound to XLN upon receiving the approach clearance but I still wouldn't leave 5,910 until established inbound on the 050 radial unless ATC said "descend to my radar altitude of 1,500 meters now."
As to ZSSS ILS Y 36L If I were parked in the hold at 3,940 and cleared for the approach, I would turn inbound in the hold immediately but not leave 3,940 for 2,960 until inbound on the JTN 181 radial or inbound on the ISH Localizer.
As to ZSSS ILS Y 36L If I were parked in the hold at 3,940 and cleared for the approach, I would turn inbound in the hold immediately but not leave 3,940 for 2,960 until inbound on the JTN 181 radial or inbound on the ISH Localizer.
At JTN your altitude check is 1280 feet on the glideslope. inbound localiser established.
can you post the chart so at least the rest of audience can see what youre implying? I cant paste it - so its difficult to prove my point of view
Last edited by SW1; 18th May 2018 at 15:50.
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where you should be at 550m (1810) youre just setting yourself up for glideslope from above. you have 2 miles to descend from 3940 to 1800 feet, Please read the chart. At JTN your altitude check is 1280 feet on the glideslope. inbound localiser established.
can you post the chart so at least the rest of audience can see what youre implying? I cant so difficult to prove my point of view
can you post the chart so at least the rest of audience can see what youre implying? I cant so difficult to prove my point of view
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I am under the impression I have to do the racetrack 4.4 JTN DME initial approach segment after leaving the hold. (bold planview track vs thin planview track.)Then again, I am not qualified in things Chinese, so I would certainly want an expert Chinese flight ops class before tackling a procedure like the ZSSS ILS DME Y Runway 36. (or for anywhere in that part of the world.)
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Know the environment before commenting. The OP was asking for advice. By the way if you "stuck to you your guns" regarding that MHA and messed up the approach on a PC you would fail(shanghai case)
How they do things stateside doesnt count. I wouldnt comment on a SFO approach when ive never been there.
BTW: Matt should have posted this to the fragrant harbour forum- as at least the dragon and cathay guys could give some input as they fly to both destinations.
cheers
Last edited by SW1; 18th May 2018 at 17:27.