radio communication failure

[alexious85]

The standard ICAO radio communication failure starts by saying that if you are in VMC (does not specify if you are an IFR or VFR flight so i guess it encompasses both cases) then continue in VMC and land at the nearest suitable aerodrome.
Then it goes to say that if you are in a radar environment with provision of ATC , continue for 7 minutes maintaining speed/ LVL and then adjust speed/lvl according to flight plan route and continue....
I just wan to confirm that if you are in a radar environment , you disregard the fact you may be in VMC and you just continue as per the procedure all the way to the destination

[galaxy flyer]

No, it’s best to get out of the system. IF a safe VMC descent and landing can be made. The “continue” part is if you’re in IMC. The rule then means you will be predictable—following the flight plan.

[good egg]

Although ACARS has been used in these situations to good effect.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Know the order of altitudes and routing AVE F
Assigned, Vectored Expected and (As)Filed

If in IMC you may take any available instrument approach

[172_driver]

In the US. The ICAO is slighly different, I am sure you are aware.

I am not much for the lost comm procedure today. They seem to have been written before Kitty Hawk when airplanes flew no higher than 3000 ft and every field had an on site navaid. Some airports today you wouldn't find unless you had a FMS.

[Chesty Morgan]

Originally Posted by galaxy flyer

No, it’s best to get out of the system. IF a safe VMC descent and landing can be made. The “continue” part is if you’re in IMC. The rule then means you will be predictable—following the flight plan.

So if, for instance, we are an IFR flight at 38k over France, in the airway system under radar control but VMC and we have a radio failure you're advocating just doing our own thing to get on the ground asap rather than following the standard RFP?! I hope you've got your interception procedures polished.

Alex, you are correct with the caveat that in the London TMA it's 3 minutes not 7.

[C.M]

This should be sorted out beyond doubt . Personally , and I could be wrong , I don’t think is too practical to use the VMC reference to get back on the ground once you have lost all comms . The one and only time I could possibly think you would be ok is the loss of comms right after departure, provided the airport in question has approach radar ( so they can see you squawk 7600 and prepare for the possibility of you intending to return ) . If you do it in any other portion of the flight or when that airport does not have an approach radar , no one really can guess your intentions and plan accordingly and it could get messy.
Just my thought

[Intruder]

Per the US FAA AIM:

VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot must continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
NOTE -
This procedure also applies when two-way radio failure occurs while operating in Class A airspace. The primary objective of this provision in 14 CFR Section 91.185 is to preclude extended IFR operation by these aircraft within the ATC system. Pilots should recognize that operation under these conditions may unnecessarily as well as adversely affect other users of the airspace, since ATC may be required to reroute or delay other users in order to protect the failure aircraft. However, it is not intended that the requirement to “land as soon as practicable” be construed to mean “as soon as possible.” Pilots retain the prerogative of exercising their best judgment and are not required to land at an unauthorized airport, at an airport unsuitable for the type of aircraft flown, or to land only minutes short of their intended destination.

So if you cannot establish any means of communication (ACARS, etc), you have to decide which is safest: Proceed to filed destination or land somewhere enroute. Unless and until you are assured of VMC from your Flight Level to touchdown, continue as filed. If you reach a "severe clear" area with a suitable airport, then you can make a decision. Realize that an uncleared descent through traffic on a crowded airway could also be disastrous, so the availability of other aids (Transponder, TCAS, etc) will weigh in the decision.

[evansb]

VFR NORDO and RONLY
Unplanned Loss of Communications

Must complete 2 sides of circuit before turning final
Maintain a keen watch for traffic
REMEMBER - NORDO and RONLY aircraft may operate into or out of MF area with prior notification of FSS, CARS or RCO, providing it is in operation.

[EGPFlyer]

In the UK, if on an IFR flight, ATC will expect you to follow the IMC procedure, even if you are VMC ( you can still adopt the VMC Procedure if you have an overriding safety reason.)

[Uplinker]

I had this in the SIM, on an IMC approach to a Spanish airport with an extremely difficult and complicated lost comms procedure.

Having attempted, (not very well), to fly the lost comms routing and incorporate the 7 minutes etc, I was told; “Never mind all that; squawk 7600 (I was), avoid terrain and land. On seeing your 7600, they will get everybody out of your way”, unquote.

[serworacle]

Hi everyone, this is the topic I'm looking for.
In jeppessen, as everyone knows, It says


INSTRUMENT METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS

A controlled flight experiencing communication failure in IMC, or where it does not appear feasible to continue in VMC shall:

1. set transponder to code 7600;
   
2. maintain for a period of 7 minutes the last assigned speed and level or the minimum flight altitude, if the minimum flight altitude is higher than the assigned level. The period of 7 minutes commences:
   1. if operating on a route without compulsory reporting points or if instructions have been received to omit position reports:
      • – at the time the last assigned level or minimum flight altitude is reached, or
        
      • – at the time the transponder is set to Code 7600, whichever is later, or
        
   2. if operating on a route with compulsory reporting points and no instruction to omit position report has been received:
      • – at the time the last assigned level or minimum flight altitude is reached, or
        
      • – at the previously reported pilot estimate for the compulsory reporting point, or
        
      • – at the time of a failed position report over a compulsory reporting point, whichever is later;
        
        3.thereafter, adjust level and speed in accordance with the filed flight plan;
        
        4.if being radar vectored or proceeding offset according to RNAV without a specified limit, proceed in the most direct manner possible to rejoin the current flight plan route no later than the next significant point, taking into consideration the applicable minimum flight altitude;
        
        5. proceed according to the current flight plan route to the appropriate designated navigation aid serving the destination airport and, when required to ensure compliance with para 6 below, hold over this aid until commencement of descent;
        
        6. commence descent from the navigational aid specified in para 5 above at, or as close as possible to, the expected approach time last received and acknowledged or, if no expected approach time has been received and acknowledged, at or as close as possible to, the estimated time of arrival resulting in the current flight plan;
        
        7. complete a normal instrument approach procedure as specified for the designated navigation aid, and
        
        8.land, if possible, within 30 minutes after the estimated time of arrival specified in para 6 above or the last acknowledged expected approach time, whichever is later

for example, if we fly at fl 360 on route to Porto from Athens and and fly according to the flight plan, when do we start to descent.
it doesn't seem logic to me keeping 360 until over nav aid or fix then descent. Or should we descent when top of descent come? This is more logic because like it says we proceed with the flight plan and also ATC knows when we descent with squawk 7600.
My teacher and I have an argument on this subject and he says we can't descent like that.
Actually I am looking for cleaner explanations(official documents) than jeppessen does for descending having radio failure on IMC to change his .

I hope you can help me.

Thanks in advance.