Doing Your First Type Rating.
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Doing Your First Type Rating.
Hi folks,
Quite a way off getting to this stage but basically I've heard conflicting stories as to how difficult your first type rating is for something like.....say a B737. Some say it's a nightmare others say it's a piece of wee wee and that you just have to go through the motions.
What's the truth PPRuNers? Do many people fluff up their type rating and is there life for you in the airlines after such an occurance?
Cheers,
VFE.
PS: I resisted the temptation to post a poll on this!
Quite a way off getting to this stage but basically I've heard conflicting stories as to how difficult your first type rating is for something like.....say a B737. Some say it's a nightmare others say it's a piece of wee wee and that you just have to go through the motions.
What's the truth PPRuNers? Do many people fluff up their type rating and is there life for you in the airlines after such an occurance?
Cheers,
VFE.
PS: I resisted the temptation to post a poll on this!
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I guess it all depends on background - a 200 hour fATPL may struggle and that is alot of the reason MCC courses were introduced.
A more involved course like CTC's AQC course is an even better 'bridge' between single pilot flying and initial type conversion.
A more involved course like CTC's AQC course is an even better 'bridge' between single pilot flying and initial type conversion.
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So what parts cause the most problems? Is it the technical aspect or purely flying the aircraft or, as you indicated - working alongside another pilot?
Do you have to learn reels of electric and hydraulic manuals off-by-heart or is it just a case of knowing how to operate the systems?
Thanks,
VFE.
Do you have to learn reels of electric and hydraulic manuals off-by-heart or is it just a case of knowing how to operate the systems?
Thanks,
VFE.
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With limited hours and no multi-crew experience anyone who says that they did not have a very steep learning curve on their first big type rating is telling porkies.
You need experience under your belt. You need to have spent time just listening to more experienced pilots, asking questions about things you haven't understood, appreciating how two people work together to operate a single piece of machinery.
The technical side is totally separate. Either you have the sort of mind that can absorb all the facts and figures or you don't. If you don't, you could be the best stick-and-rudder guy with the best inter-crew technique ever and you would still have to work bloody hard at it, spending time after hours in your hotel room mugging up, pinning the flightdeck layout up on the wall to learn where all the knobs and tits are, working out some drill to get into your head all the limitations etc. etc. On the other hand, some of the worst pilots in the world with no interpersonal skills whatsoever have no trouble at all with the technical stuff.
It's the actual flying side that matters. If all you've flown is a 152 and an Aztec, you WILL struggle to learn to fly a 737NG with another person in the other seat. But struggling with it doesn't mean you won't get there in the end. Willingness to learn is what makes the difference.
You need experience under your belt. You need to have spent time just listening to more experienced pilots, asking questions about things you haven't understood, appreciating how two people work together to operate a single piece of machinery.
The technical side is totally separate. Either you have the sort of mind that can absorb all the facts and figures or you don't. If you don't, you could be the best stick-and-rudder guy with the best inter-crew technique ever and you would still have to work bloody hard at it, spending time after hours in your hotel room mugging up, pinning the flightdeck layout up on the wall to learn where all the knobs and tits are, working out some drill to get into your head all the limitations etc. etc. On the other hand, some of the worst pilots in the world with no interpersonal skills whatsoever have no trouble at all with the technical stuff.
It's the actual flying side that matters. If all you've flown is a 152 and an Aztec, you WILL struggle to learn to fly a 737NG with another person in the other seat. But struggling with it doesn't mean you won't get there in the end. Willingness to learn is what makes the difference.
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Couldn't agree more with the Captain.
It's down to your attitude and determination, as is anything challenging in life. Hopefully you have demonstrated these at interview to get selected in the first place but you still have nigh on six months of really hard work to be signed off to the line.
I did the 757 rating with less than 1000hrs TT, 750 multi piston and yes it was hard work, but having spent three years and a substantial sum of money getting that far I was not going to allow myself to blow it all by failing the type rating. Out of a course of 6, all low hours, 2 did fail and IMHO it was more to do with their attitude and lack of determination. Neither of them was in their hotel room going through the profiles and calls again and again until they had them right, they were 'holidaying' and it was showing.
The Tech course was mind numbing, we did a CBT course where you just keep wading through presentation after presentation on all the systems until your head was aching and your eyes were red. 4 weeks of that was enough to send you round the bend!
Once the sim work starts it is vitally important to plan ahead. You get the course manual and your instructor will brief you on what will be covered next. Initially, nail all the scan patterns and SOP calls, once they're cemented in your memory it gives you so much more capacity to use on the 'new' items for each session. The best advice I can think of giving is to go away and run through everything that you will be covering in that next session, read all the manuals and ensure you are fully up to speed before the trainer even starts his briefing on the day. Have your notebook ready with anything you're not sure about and use the pre-briefing to clarify these points so that you know exactly what you are trying to do when you get in there......even if you don't get it right! Get together with your sim partner for an hour or two and run through on the 'cardboard bomber', that way you give yourself the best chance of performing reasonably; I found that no matter how well prepared I was, once 'in the seat' it all became so much more difficult......without the prep my performance would have been sub-standard.
Each sim session was 4 or 5 hours with an hour before and an hour after for briefings. I was putting in a good additional 4 hours of prep every day, and believe me you were physically and mentally shattered after each and every session! Anybody else remember getting out of the right seat to swap and become PNF and having to 'peel' your damp shirt away from your back!!!???
So, enjoyable most of the time, but perhaps that's not the best word to describe it, even though it's really what you want to do. I'm sure a conversion would be much more enjoyable due to the increased experience before starting.
Best of luck
PP
It's down to your attitude and determination, as is anything challenging in life. Hopefully you have demonstrated these at interview to get selected in the first place but you still have nigh on six months of really hard work to be signed off to the line.
I did the 757 rating with less than 1000hrs TT, 750 multi piston and yes it was hard work, but having spent three years and a substantial sum of money getting that far I was not going to allow myself to blow it all by failing the type rating. Out of a course of 6, all low hours, 2 did fail and IMHO it was more to do with their attitude and lack of determination. Neither of them was in their hotel room going through the profiles and calls again and again until they had them right, they were 'holidaying' and it was showing.
The Tech course was mind numbing, we did a CBT course where you just keep wading through presentation after presentation on all the systems until your head was aching and your eyes were red. 4 weeks of that was enough to send you round the bend!
Once the sim work starts it is vitally important to plan ahead. You get the course manual and your instructor will brief you on what will be covered next. Initially, nail all the scan patterns and SOP calls, once they're cemented in your memory it gives you so much more capacity to use on the 'new' items for each session. The best advice I can think of giving is to go away and run through everything that you will be covering in that next session, read all the manuals and ensure you are fully up to speed before the trainer even starts his briefing on the day. Have your notebook ready with anything you're not sure about and use the pre-briefing to clarify these points so that you know exactly what you are trying to do when you get in there......even if you don't get it right! Get together with your sim partner for an hour or two and run through on the 'cardboard bomber', that way you give yourself the best chance of performing reasonably; I found that no matter how well prepared I was, once 'in the seat' it all became so much more difficult......without the prep my performance would have been sub-standard.
Each sim session was 4 or 5 hours with an hour before and an hour after for briefings. I was putting in a good additional 4 hours of prep every day, and believe me you were physically and mentally shattered after each and every session! Anybody else remember getting out of the right seat to swap and become PNF and having to 'peel' your damp shirt away from your back!!!???
So, enjoyable most of the time, but perhaps that's not the best word to describe it, even though it's really what you want to do. I'm sure a conversion would be much more enjoyable due to the increased experience before starting.
Best of luck
PP
Last edited by Pilot Pete; 6th Jul 2002 at 01:56.
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Thank you very much Captain Stable and Pilot Pete. Two very good replies which I shall be saving to read again when I get to the type rating stage.
Thanks again. It's postings like yours which remind me just how bloody useful PPRuNe is!
Cheers guys,
VFE.
Thanks again. It's postings like yours which remind me just how bloody useful PPRuNe is!
Cheers guys,
VFE.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I would certainly concour with the captain and Pilot pete's post. I did the 757 course with 200 hours TT but after a Jet Orientation course which introduced the SOP's and jet handling.
The groundschool did get tedious but rewarding as you are finally studying an aircrafts systems that you are going to be using every day at work so worth knowing well. Like the ATPL exams though the CAA exam was a bit of a memory retention exercise and with all the cramming before hand proved not to be too much of a problem. Repetition and ensuring you know the systems well is all you need. This is why CBT is good as one can revise bits easily and then cross refer it to the manual and then do the practice questions a few times and it is just drummed into you!
We did the fixed Base sim during the groundschool which was enjoyable as it allowed us to play with the jet. Top tip though was my partner and I never used the automatics unless the lesson actually required us to. The instructor was not allowed to instruct on flying technique or even pass comment so we could play away and get a certain amount of comfort in throwing it around down ILS's etc.
When we came to the full motion sim we had developed some of the handling skills required and had a pretty good idea of where things were. There is no denying that there is a lot of pressure to do well but if the right attitude is shown the instructors will back you all the way. I do not know anyone who sails right through - everyone I know had a hang up, but whether it was a big or little one they persevered and got through it. You have been waiting for the chance to play with big toys for 23 years so you may as well work like never before and enjoy it - learning to be a professional pilot in a biggish jet - what could be more fun with clothing?
By the end you eventually get signed off and you then realise that the next time you pole it around it will be in the real aircraft - I will NEVER forget my day at base and it made all the effort worthwhile.
Top tips I was given included do not get divorced, move house or for that matter do anything else during a conversion course. During the groundschool, apart from 8 hours sleep and a shower I was working every hour I was given to cram it all in - yes checklists were everywhere I looked and I flew the wallpaper around quite a bit. The sim however was more relaxed as with the four hour box time, one hour at each end and about two hours revision I had a bit of time for other things.It normally worked as four days on, two off.By the end of the four on though it was nice to unwind and catch up!
I guess it also helps if you have a keen partner to study with and generally chat aircraft. As an aside we went, on our days off, on supernumary trips which were invaluable to put things into practice, see how it really works and keep up the motivation.
I am very sorry but I appear to have rambled quite a bit - perhaps a little disjointedly?
Well suffice to say you will enjoy it when you get there and after that you get the line training which is the real world!
Have fun and keep going for it.
Yours aye,
Leslie
P.S. I was self-sponsored at OATS
The groundschool did get tedious but rewarding as you are finally studying an aircrafts systems that you are going to be using every day at work so worth knowing well. Like the ATPL exams though the CAA exam was a bit of a memory retention exercise and with all the cramming before hand proved not to be too much of a problem. Repetition and ensuring you know the systems well is all you need. This is why CBT is good as one can revise bits easily and then cross refer it to the manual and then do the practice questions a few times and it is just drummed into you!
We did the fixed Base sim during the groundschool which was enjoyable as it allowed us to play with the jet. Top tip though was my partner and I never used the automatics unless the lesson actually required us to. The instructor was not allowed to instruct on flying technique or even pass comment so we could play away and get a certain amount of comfort in throwing it around down ILS's etc.
When we came to the full motion sim we had developed some of the handling skills required and had a pretty good idea of where things were. There is no denying that there is a lot of pressure to do well but if the right attitude is shown the instructors will back you all the way. I do not know anyone who sails right through - everyone I know had a hang up, but whether it was a big or little one they persevered and got through it. You have been waiting for the chance to play with big toys for 23 years so you may as well work like never before and enjoy it - learning to be a professional pilot in a biggish jet - what could be more fun with clothing?
By the end you eventually get signed off and you then realise that the next time you pole it around it will be in the real aircraft - I will NEVER forget my day at base and it made all the effort worthwhile.
Top tips I was given included do not get divorced, move house or for that matter do anything else during a conversion course. During the groundschool, apart from 8 hours sleep and a shower I was working every hour I was given to cram it all in - yes checklists were everywhere I looked and I flew the wallpaper around quite a bit. The sim however was more relaxed as with the four hour box time, one hour at each end and about two hours revision I had a bit of time for other things.It normally worked as four days on, two off.By the end of the four on though it was nice to unwind and catch up!
I guess it also helps if you have a keen partner to study with and generally chat aircraft. As an aside we went, on our days off, on supernumary trips which were invaluable to put things into practice, see how it really works and keep up the motivation.
I am very sorry but I appear to have rambled quite a bit - perhaps a little disjointedly?
Well suffice to say you will enjoy it when you get there and after that you get the line training which is the real world!
Have fun and keep going for it.
Yours aye,
Leslie
P.S. I was self-sponsored at OATS
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Thanks Leslie - another marvelous posting!
Sounds like the advice we get given from day one follows through to the end: Work your butt off!!
VFE.
Sounds like the advice we get given from day one follows through to the end: Work your butt off!!
VFE.
Just like to add my thanks to all the contributors of this thread. As someone who's got all this to look forward to, I've found it facinating reading in an area I've struggled in the past to get some insite into.
Best thread I've seen on Pprune for a while. Shame there is not more of this quality on the Wannabe's forum.
S
Best thread I've seen on Pprune for a while. Shame there is not more of this quality on the Wannabe's forum.
S
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Excellent posts, guys. I have done 6 typeratings in my career and I agree with you, Leslie, the way you studied was the only way that worked for me. However, don't forget that your body needs some exercise as well, not just your mind...
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Yes
Well said TTail. On re-reading my post does come across a bit 'hide yourself away from the world for the duration of your type rating'. This was not the intention, really to emphasise that LOTS of hard work was required.
We did the fixed base sim at Heathrow and went out to Brunei for the full motion sim. We would generally get together and try many local eateries whilst in Brunei.....especially with the instructor who had been many times before and knew the turf well. I personally went to the hotel gym just about everyday and then blasted a couple of dozen lengths of the pool. The physical activity is great for removing the stress related tightness in the neck and shoulders and helps you to sleep really well.
Leslie
I agree with the 'next time it's the real thing' after completing the sim. Great feeling. Hidden in the middle of this link are my thoughts on flying a 757 for the first time http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911
PP
Well said TTail. On re-reading my post does come across a bit 'hide yourself away from the world for the duration of your type rating'. This was not the intention, really to emphasise that LOTS of hard work was required.
We did the fixed base sim at Heathrow and went out to Brunei for the full motion sim. We would generally get together and try many local eateries whilst in Brunei.....especially with the instructor who had been many times before and knew the turf well. I personally went to the hotel gym just about everyday and then blasted a couple of dozen lengths of the pool. The physical activity is great for removing the stress related tightness in the neck and shoulders and helps you to sleep really well.
Leslie
I agree with the 'next time it's the real thing' after completing the sim. Great feeling. Hidden in the middle of this link are my thoughts on flying a 757 for the first time http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...&threadid=6911
PP
