Pan Mayday
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Pan or Mayday
Pan... Mayday is imminent danger. As you're now flying a single engine aircraft like most others it's hardly life threatening. I do appreciate its harder to fly asymmetric but you will have been trained. I would suggest it's a land ASAP though rather than a Land as soon as practicable. :-)
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Pan or Mayday
From dark and distant memory of ATPL air law. If you lose more than 33% of your power sources then it is a mandatory mayday call. I'll try to find the reference to post. So basically engine failure on a 2 or 3 engine aircraft a mayday, engine failure on a 4 engine a/c it is not a requirement (assuming that is the only fault).
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It's the commanders decision in my outfit, however every deviation from a clearance due to system malfunctions is initially a mayday, since pretty much all EOSIDS deviate from the cleared SID it is a mandatory mayday to start with. Same during cruise, since maintaining altitude is impossible.
In my opinion, start with a mayday, you can always downgrade it to a PAN state once everything is secured.
In my opinion, start with a mayday, you can always downgrade it to a PAN state once everything is secured.
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At a previous employer, it was a pan but a crew incapacitation was a mayday... never understood the logic.
I'm of the school of thought that you can never know for certain why an engine just quit so why risk a pan call? (Recall BA038 and the way in which both donkeys died within a few minutes/seconds of each other). Make it a mayday but manage the situation and fly the plane like you made a pan call if that, practically speaking, is the better or safer thing to do.
An old CRM instructor told me he had a dear friend who declared a pan for a guy who reporting breathing difficulties. Prior to landing, the guy died of a heart attack. Victim's family tried to sue the airline / skipper for not declaring a mayday, claiming the few minutes saved would've made all the difference (absolute rubbish, obviously). Moral of the story, in this stupidly litigious world, don't settle for second best.
Controversial point of view? maybe.
I'm of the school of thought that you can never know for certain why an engine just quit so why risk a pan call? (Recall BA038 and the way in which both donkeys died within a few minutes/seconds of each other). Make it a mayday but manage the situation and fly the plane like you made a pan call if that, practically speaking, is the better or safer thing to do.
An old CRM instructor told me he had a dear friend who declared a pan for a guy who reporting breathing difficulties. Prior to landing, the guy died of a heart attack. Victim's family tried to sue the airline / skipper for not declaring a mayday, claiming the few minutes saved would've made all the difference (absolute rubbish, obviously). Moral of the story, in this stupidly litigious world, don't settle for second best.
Controversial point of view? maybe.
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FWIW, it's not necessarily considered an emergency at my company if one engine fails. However it's mandatory to declare an emergency on failure of a second engine (4 engine airplane). That's more of a company policy thing, I don't ever recall reading any regulation which specified that.
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For me I think it would depend. During cruise over the UK with airports all around I would be tempted to call a PAN (knowing that ATC in the UK would understand this). During t/o or cruise somewhere remote I would say mayday.
About Superpilot's CRM instructor's story; In the back of my head something says that only a PAN should be used whenever it is not your own vessel in danger (regardless of the level of danger). Anyone know if I have actually read that somewhere proper or if I am just making it up?
About Superpilot's CRM instructor's story; In the back of my head something says that only a PAN should be used whenever it is not your own vessel in danger (regardless of the level of danger). Anyone know if I have actually read that somewhere proper or if I am just making it up?
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Pan... Mayday is imminent danger. As you're now flying a single engine aircraft like most others it's hardly life threatening. I do appreciate its harder to fly asymmetric but you will have been trained. I would suggest it's a land ASAP though rather than a Land as soon as practicable. :-)
It could well be imminent danger depending on the reason.
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Originally Posted by Denti
In my opinion, start with a mayday, you can always downgrade it to a PAN state once everything is secured.
In the sim we often get crews who want to launch into a Mayday or Pan speech about 10 seconds after the failure is introduced.
I tell 'em the guy on the ground is of no immediate use, so fly the
aircraft first, do the memory items next and then decide what they need to tell ATC and the cabin crew. What is the problem? No performance or systems issues? Say very little and choose you words carefully......see below.
Fire, now under control? Say more - Pan or Mayday, whatever you think fits the occasion.
Fire not under control or serious degradation of flight control or flight path? Mayday.
In the grand scheme of things either a Pan or Mayday gets a similar response from ATC. They call out the emergency services and set you up for priority in the approach sequence.
The anoraks on the perimeter fence hear every word and relay all to the media. The airline's name is up there on the TV screens before the aircraft has landed.
If the subsequent enquiry reckons you over-reacted, tea and bickies time.
I tell 'em the guy on the ground is of no immediate use, so fly the
aircraft first, do the memory items next and then decide what they need to tell ATC and the cabin crew. What is the problem? No performance or systems issues? Say very little and choose you words carefully......see below. Fire, now under control? Say more - Pan or Mayday, whatever you think fits the occasion.
Fire not under control or serious degradation of flight control or flight path? Mayday.
In the grand scheme of things either a Pan or Mayday gets a similar response from ATC. They call out the emergency services and set you up for priority in the approach sequence.
The anoraks on the perimeter fence hear every word and relay all to the media. The airline's name is up there on the TV screens before the aircraft has landed.
If the subsequent enquiry reckons you over-reacted, tea and bickies time.
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Depends on your performance category really.
The turboprop I fly has some pretty obscure emergency turn procedures to ensure terrain clearance (which ATC may not even be aware we plan to do), so in the event of an engine failure at V1, it would be mayday as soon as practical to advise our immediate intentions with standby at the end to give us time to sort ourselves out.
Engine failure at altitude would likely be a Pan.
The turboprop I fly has some pretty obscure emergency turn procedures to ensure terrain clearance (which ATC may not even be aware we plan to do), so in the event of an engine failure at V1, it would be mayday as soon as practical to advise our immediate intentions with standby at the end to give us time to sort ourselves out.
Engine failure at altitude would likely be a Pan.
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You're the captain/pilot, you decide! There is no particular right or wrong. You are advising ATC of the priority required, as you assess it.
Whilst I agree that there is a priority of requirements, ATC might be glad to know quickly that you possibly shed bits of your motor all over the runway before he/she clears the aircraft that was waiting behind you at the holding point to take off, or the inbound to land, into a potential debris field.
An early call of Mayday (or Pan if you really feel that is more appropriate) should fit easily into the time available after the problem has been initially identified.
I tell 'em the guy on the ground is of no immediate use, so fly the aircraft first, do the memory items next and then decide what they need to tell ATC and the cabin crew.
An early call of Mayday (or Pan if you really feel that is more appropriate) should fit easily into the time available after the problem has been initially identified.
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HIGH EXPECT
I disagree with your view that a two engine plane now on one engine, is just being a single engine plane.
A two engine plane that has lost one engine is a crippled aircraft and in an emergency situation.
Would you declare an emergency in a light single engine plane if the engine could only develop 50percent power?
The use of mayday vs pan is an odd question. I understand that in countries where multiple languages are used that standard radio phrases are important.
I can think of times that emergency should have been declared (using mayday). And that differences in language can make things even more confusing. I can think of a 707 inbound to KJFK that ran out of fuel after much trouble along the way. And ATC not really understanding how bad things had gotten.
The pan vs mayday question is one that is easily covered in the USA> I daresay most pilots would never use PANPAN. Its either an emergency or it isn't.
I disagree with your view that a two engine plane now on one engine, is just being a single engine plane.
A two engine plane that has lost one engine is a crippled aircraft and in an emergency situation.
Would you declare an emergency in a light single engine plane if the engine could only develop 50percent power?
The use of mayday vs pan is an odd question. I understand that in countries where multiple languages are used that standard radio phrases are important.
I can think of times that emergency should have been declared (using mayday). And that differences in language can make things even more confusing. I can think of a 707 inbound to KJFK that ran out of fuel after much trouble along the way. And ATC not really understanding how bad things had gotten.
The pan vs mayday question is one that is easily covered in the USA> I daresay most pilots would never use PANPAN. Its either an emergency or it isn't.
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I can think of a 707 inbound to KJFK that ran out of fuel after much trouble along the way. And ATC not really understanding how bad things had gotten.
When it became quite evident to the captain that they were in a critical fuel situation, he told the FO to declare a Mayday.
The First Officer did not.
Three times (so I recall) the captain asked the FO if he had done so*, the FO lied and told the captain he did.
By the time ATC realized that things were heading south, it was too late.
* The captain could not understand why they had not been immediately vectored toward the final approach path after declaring a Mayday, not knowing of course that no Mayday had been declared by the First Officer. If the First Officer had declared a Mayday when the captain ordered him to do so, it was determined that the aircraft would have landed safely. The fact that the captain was not monitoring the ATC communications was a contributing cause of the accident.
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I was chatting to a UK atc trainer about this, UK ATC will treat an engine failure on a twin engined aircraft as a mayday no matter what you declare, not sure about the rest of the world.
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There may be some discretion involved.....and landing a modern jet safely on one engine is a very doable thing.....but the QRH will say land at nearest suitable airport, as it is definitely a serious incident.
As opinions are free, I'll give you mine......there are very few major incidents like this in one's career, and personally I would take advantage of every resource available, and a mayday call opens lots of doors.
I have flown 3 and 4 engine jets, and our manual clearly said the loss of one engine did not constitute an emergency, ( and you can legally continue to airport chosen by commander- look at BA flight that flew from LAX to London after engine failure on takeoff in 747), I would still declare emergency/mayday and get it back on ground safely.
I have never heard of the Caa/ FAA ever chastising someone because they have declared emergency, but I have seen them question pilots who had a potentially serious problem and failed to declare emmergency.
As opinions are free, I'll give you mine......there are very few major incidents like this in one's career, and personally I would take advantage of every resource available, and a mayday call opens lots of doors.
I have flown 3 and 4 engine jets, and our manual clearly said the loss of one engine did not constitute an emergency, ( and you can legally continue to airport chosen by commander- look at BA flight that flew from LAX to London after engine failure on takeoff in 747), I would still declare emergency/mayday and get it back on ground safely.
I have never heard of the Caa/ FAA ever chastising someone because they have declared emergency, but I have seen them question pilots who had a potentially serious problem and failed to declare emmergency.