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Logbook - black magic

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Logbook - black magic

Old 8th Nov 2014, 20:27
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Join Date: Mar 2009
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Logbook - black magic

Hey folks!

I am in the process of doing my first type-rating and is looking very much forward to my first airline job. During my pilot training I have logged my hours according to what my instructors have told me. For the most part, advice I get on this is pretty consistent. For example, people may or may not choose to log their sim time, but general consent is that they will not count sim-hrs towards their total time.

But for logging multi-pilot time, which I will be soon, I am wondering how I am supposed to log the hours? I can ask the line training captain of course, but I am wondering if there is an official EASA source on this? A link would be greatly appreciated. I haven't been able to find one yet.

When flying as FO, but pilot flying, will I log that as PICUS time? My logbook doesn't actually have a column for this. Do I log it as PIC and write PICUS under remarks? I do however have a column named co-pilot. Will I log my hrs as pilot monitoring in this column?

Perhaps not the most important of logbook items, but nevertheless: Do I log only the landings I do as pilot flying or even the ones where I am pilot monitoring?

So far, I have logged airport designators as four-letter ICAO codes, but someone told me it is common to log the three-letter IATA code among professional pilots. Please confirm?

I have logged IFR time whenever I have been flying under instrument flying rules. I have also logged IMC time (real or simulated). I will continue to log IFR hrs, but is there any meaning in logging actual hrs spent in IMC?

I would appreciate any advice on the matter, but especially if there is clear and non-ambiguous EASA document (yeah, I know: not very likely) I could refer to.
jadalabada is offline  
Old 8th Nov 2014, 21:11
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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but especially if there is clear and non-ambiguous EASA document (yeah, I know: not very likely) I could refer to.
EASA - Acceptable Means of Compliance and Guidance Material to Part-FCL
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time (page 16)
Pilot Flying/Pilot Monitoring is irrelevant for Logging purposes.

PIC is for the person on board who makes the Command Decisions, not who manipulates the flying controls.

You will be recording Co-Pilot for a long time to come.

Later, once you have gained sufficient experience and in line with your Company SOPs, you will practice taking on the role of PIC and will then record this time as PICUS (if the Captain agrees).
Level Attitude is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2014, 05:12
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Later, once you have gained sufficient experience and in line with your Company SOPs, you will practice taking on the role of PIC and will then record this time as PICUS (if the Captain agrees).
Actually, that is a UK CAA decision and therefore only applies to UK licenses. Other CAAs in europe are much more restrictive on that and allow PICUS recording only in special programs, usually during command upgrade or in a special preparation training period.
Denti is online now  
Old 9th Nov 2014, 11:55
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Join Date: Mar 2013
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Realistically as a First Officer nearly all your time should be as co-pilot or p2 (depending on logbook). For PICUS you need to check the company ops manual. My last (UK) company the FO could log PICUS as long as they had done both the landing and the takeoff. As mentioned the UK tends to be more open to this that other countries.
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Old 9th Nov 2014, 13:43
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...Other CAAs in europe are much more restrictive on that and allow PICUS recording only in special programs...
Denti,
I am not disagreeing with you. I thought that was what I had said - just in a more 'encompassing' way in that a Company's Ops Manuals need to be approved by their Competent Authority.

Of course a Pilot could find some difficulties if their (personal) Licensing Competent Authority is different (and has different interpretations on Logging time) to the Competent Authority that oversees the Carrier they are working for.

My last (UK) company the FO could log PICUS as long as they had done both the landing and the take off
OhNoCB,
I do not believe this meets EASA requirements.

Being the PIC, or acting as the PIC, means making Command Decisions.
Even if it is accepted that flying a Take Off or a Landing counts as acting as PIC - What about before the Take Off, between the Take Off and the Landing and after the Landing?
Were the FOs claiming the whole flight as PICUS?
Level Attitude is offline  
Old 9th Nov 2014, 14:41
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LA,

Yes they were, and in fairness to them it was always done in the proper way in that the FOs would be doing the planning and post flight paperwork, and conducting the flight in the way that PICUS should be.

However what I said before about the takeoff and landing is what is (was) in the company's approved operations manual and was accepted by the UK CAA. I agree that it isn't really in the spirit of the term 'PICUS' to use it in the literal way that the manual suggests.
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Old 9th Nov 2014, 15:59
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Yes they were, and in fairness to them it was always done in the proper way in that the FOs would be doing the planning and post flight paperwork, and conducting the flight in the way that PICUS should be
Thanks for the added info.

I can see no problem at all with what you have now posted. The Company Ops Manual requirement for the FOs to also be PF for Take Off and Landing in order to Log PICUS would be additional to, and does not contradict, the other requirements (and I can even see some merit in the practice).

It is the assumption that PF, on its own, automatically means PICUS that I do not like.
Level Attitude is offline  
Old 16th Nov 2014, 16:20
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Thanks!

That my question sparked a debate about definition and standard practices concerning the PICUS term, I can only interpret as a sign that I am not the only one slightly confused. Not so anymore! Thanks everyone!

And thanks also to Arctic Circle for mentioning my other uncertainties.
jadalabada is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2014, 09:25
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Uk FO, pooleys log book, log mine in the PIC column when PF, co-pilot column when pm, it's obvious you're not claiming the hours as actual command hours as you've got the commanders name in the in command column. Makes adding up hours a lot easier. Never had any problems from the several airlines that have inspected my logbook. It's your logbook, to my mind you can write it in however you want, just so long as you know know what hours are what and can explain how you've logged them to anyone who asks.
Han 1st Solo is offline  
Old 17th Nov 2014, 09:54
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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As long as you do not claim those PICUS hours as PIC, and somehow keep a separate breakdown of the real PIC hours, it should be fine.

Any recruiter would laugh at you if as a F/O you would claim as PIC half of your hours (the PF ones), despite never being nominated Commander...
dirk85 is online now  

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