A.T.P.L. how much do you really have to know?
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A.T.P.L. how much do you really have to know?
I am studying for my stage 1 exams at the minute, and I was just wondering..... How much of the information that you learn for the exams, do you actually have to apply in real life? I have had just about enough of runway lights/signs and their dimensions
Last edited by Just another student; 23rd May 2002 at 17:52.
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Its a good point you make. A lot of the stuff you learn seems to be only relevant to Aircraft engineers and weather forecasters.
I am just doing the American IR and the theory paper is completely different. It asks practical down to earth questions that will save your life rather than the CAAs engineering based questions.
None of the questions require a fundamental knowledge of the workings of a rate gyro or an INS system.
Some examples are questions like 'If the instruments show this (insert picture) where are you. Then they give you 3 answers only one of which can be right. In the JAR exams such a question would give 4 answers all next to each other .
The weather questions are more along the line of 'which document will tell you if there are thunderstorms on your route?' rather than 'when does the craichin affect hong kong and which direction does it blow in?'
As to what do you remember afterwards the answer would be very little. I remember asking two airline pilots on a flight deck visit if the speed of sound increased or decreased with altitude (at the time I did not know) , they did not know the answer but they still flew the plane safely and professionally.
I enjoyed the ATPLs but if they had been more practical and geared around safety rather than interpreting difficult english the money would have been better spent.
I am just doing the American IR and the theory paper is completely different. It asks practical down to earth questions that will save your life rather than the CAAs engineering based questions.
None of the questions require a fundamental knowledge of the workings of a rate gyro or an INS system.
Some examples are questions like 'If the instruments show this (insert picture) where are you. Then they give you 3 answers only one of which can be right. In the JAR exams such a question would give 4 answers all next to each other .
The weather questions are more along the line of 'which document will tell you if there are thunderstorms on your route?' rather than 'when does the craichin affect hong kong and which direction does it blow in?'
As to what do you remember afterwards the answer would be very little. I remember asking two airline pilots on a flight deck visit if the speed of sound increased or decreased with altitude (at the time I did not know) , they did not know the answer but they still flew the plane safely and professionally.
I enjoyed the ATPLs but if they had been more practical and geared around safety rather than interpreting difficult english the money would have been better spent.
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Just another student
If you do not have an ATPL(frozen) you WILL NOT get a job.
To pass the exams you need to understand the full syllabus. DO NOT try to just learn the answers to the "known" questions. If the question change and they do change you will fail an waste a lot of time and money.
So do yourself a favour, work hard lean the lot and you will pass the lot first time. Then you can move on to the best job in the word. (It may take some time to get that job but in time you will)
If you do not have an ATPL(frozen) you WILL NOT get a job.
To pass the exams you need to understand the full syllabus. DO NOT try to just learn the answers to the "known" questions. If the question change and they do change you will fail an waste a lot of time and money.
So do yourself a favour, work hard lean the lot and you will pass the lot first time. Then you can move on to the best job in the word. (It may take some time to get that job but in time you will)
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XYZ,
Interesting reply. JAS's question to me hinged around the relevance of the information you learn in ATPLs rather than the quickest way to jump the exam hurdle. After all when was the last time you needed to know about schuler tuning to use the INS.
I agree theory is important but if you are going to teach people 700 hours of stuff lets make it more relevent, not just difficult.
Other countries exams are no where near as difficult but does our exam system make for fewer accidents?
Interesting reply. JAS's question to me hinged around the relevance of the information you learn in ATPLs rather than the quickest way to jump the exam hurdle. After all when was the last time you needed to know about schuler tuning to use the INS.
I agree theory is important but if you are going to teach people 700 hours of stuff lets make it more relevent, not just difficult.
Other countries exams are no where near as difficult but does our exam system make for fewer accidents?
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Most of the things you learn during ATPL theory lessons is nothing but comlete waste of time. 1% of the things you learn may some day safe your life (and the ones of your passengers, too).
The big problem is, you´ll never know which 99% to forget and which percent to rember. So to be shure to know the right thing at the right time, you unfortunately have to learn all of this stuff.
And of cause there might be lots of details you´ll never learn and maybee someday better should know. Thats life.
Beside these more fundmental statement, I must agree with anyone who thinks, most of the things that are thaught to ATPL or even PPL students are no longer state of the art, sometimes wrong and generally much simplified. Try to stand an aerodynamic test at university with the things you have learned during ATPL lessons, you´ll fail comletely.
Even more dramatic is the lack of understanding of aircraft systems, especially all the new electronic and automatic stuff. So the question ´what is it doing now´ is heard much to often on CVR-tapes afterwards...
The big problem is, you´ll never know which 99% to forget and which percent to rember. So to be shure to know the right thing at the right time, you unfortunately have to learn all of this stuff.
And of cause there might be lots of details you´ll never learn and maybee someday better should know. Thats life.
Beside these more fundmental statement, I must agree with anyone who thinks, most of the things that are thaught to ATPL or even PPL students are no longer state of the art, sometimes wrong and generally much simplified. Try to stand an aerodynamic test at university with the things you have learned during ATPL lessons, you´ll fail comletely.
Even more dramatic is the lack of understanding of aircraft systems, especially all the new electronic and automatic stuff. So the question ´what is it doing now´ is heard much to often on CVR-tapes afterwards...
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And just to add something to Volume's post:
The problem is that the irrelevant stuff dilutes the relavent stuff to the point where it actually becomes counter productive. IMHO the whole thing needs to change to something resembling the US system.
The problem is that the irrelevant stuff dilutes the relavent stuff to the point where it actually becomes counter productive. IMHO the whole thing needs to change to something resembling the US system.
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very useless info
just got word that i passed the JAA ATP airlaw on the second try.
i've been in the left seat of the 737 in USA June1994-Oct96 Korea Nov96-Mar 98 and now europe for since april 98 and i can certify that the air law test is absurd.
i am studying the other tests and find it very difficult to learn what i know to be useless info. it would have been easier to learn it when i didn't know that it was so insane.
the biggest problems in the real life flying go along the lines of: what did that french controller try to say to us in english.?why do they speak french to everyother aircraft in the area? in greece, best thing to do is turn all your lights on and continually rock your wings. in spain and italy always ask for a very early descent or you will be stuck high while they put all their national airliners under and in front of you.
as to the "what's it doing now" it is not a matter of knowing the knowledge for the tests before you even are flying, but more knowing the aircraft that you actually are assigned to once hired. and then when it doesn't do what is advertized it should do, the books can only help so much.
i think it is more a matter of job security for the ones who write the tests, grade them and a source of funds for the CAA's involved. otherwise, they might actually have to make a few flights and sleep in a few hotels. and make mistakes like the rest of us.
cheers;
stator vane
i've been in the left seat of the 737 in USA June1994-Oct96 Korea Nov96-Mar 98 and now europe for since april 98 and i can certify that the air law test is absurd.
i am studying the other tests and find it very difficult to learn what i know to be useless info. it would have been easier to learn it when i didn't know that it was so insane.
the biggest problems in the real life flying go along the lines of: what did that french controller try to say to us in english.?why do they speak french to everyother aircraft in the area? in greece, best thing to do is turn all your lights on and continually rock your wings. in spain and italy always ask for a very early descent or you will be stuck high while they put all their national airliners under and in front of you.
as to the "what's it doing now" it is not a matter of knowing the knowledge for the tests before you even are flying, but more knowing the aircraft that you actually are assigned to once hired. and then when it doesn't do what is advertized it should do, the books can only help so much.
i think it is more a matter of job security for the ones who write the tests, grade them and a source of funds for the CAA's involved. otherwise, they might actually have to make a few flights and sleep in a few hotels. and make mistakes like the rest of us.
cheers;
stator vane
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XYZ pilot,
Get real, how can you possibly understand the whole syllabus, the aim is to pass the exams any way you can. This theory that you have of knowing the syllabus inside out before you can get a good job is nonsense.
Get real, how can you possibly understand the whole syllabus, the aim is to pass the exams any way you can. This theory that you have of knowing the syllabus inside out before you can get a good job is nonsense.
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Nobody can digest all the information, understand it and then apply it! It boils down to the paper you get on the day. My point is some of the information/data you are given to learn is of little or no use to you, once you get a job!
