Approach gates. Slowing down, and configuring questions.
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Approach gates. Slowing down, and configuring questions.
Hello all,
Just a few questions to get more insight from others out there.
When would you generally slow down from 250 knots on an average day?(considering no tail wind).
Would you prefer to come down with a high speed to your platform altitude, level, and then slow down and start configuring,
OR slow down whilst coming down and catching the glide path at the same time?
Flying in yesterday I was going to intercept the GS at 5000 feet, so I decided to slow down and configure. I realise I was about 16 miles away, and when I asked for flaps 1, the Captain told me it was too soon.
When I caught the GS, I had to extend the gear early because the Captain didn't give me the flaps when I asked, and the aircraft could not decelerate when it caught the GS.
Just looking for some newbie advice from guys, any pointers, or anything at all.
Thank you all.
Just a few questions to get more insight from others out there.
When would you generally slow down from 250 knots on an average day?(considering no tail wind).
Would you prefer to come down with a high speed to your platform altitude, level, and then slow down and start configuring,
OR slow down whilst coming down and catching the glide path at the same time?
Flying in yesterday I was going to intercept the GS at 5000 feet, so I decided to slow down and configure. I realise I was about 16 miles away, and when I asked for flaps 1, the Captain told me it was too soon.
When I caught the GS, I had to extend the gear early because the Captain didn't give me the flaps when I asked, and the aircraft could not decelerate when it caught the GS.
Just looking for some newbie advice from guys, any pointers, or anything at all.
Thank you all.
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Hi,
Ignoring whatever your company manual dictates regarding configuration gates, I use the following as a safe guide:
"When would you generally slow down from 250 knots on an average day?(considering no tail wind)."
Be at S-speed when intercepting the glide. The speed tends to 'hang' or increase a bit when you go down at 3 degrees, so intercepting the glide any faster than about 200kts can make life a bit difficult.
This all depends on where your intercept point lies. 250kt to 20nm is fine if you are decelerating in the descent. You can start a descent at 15nm sometimes.
I use 250kt/20nm/6000' and then adjust based on 1nm - 300ft - 10kt (level decel). Work around that triangle to adjust.
"Would you prefer to come down with a high speed to your platform altitude, level, and then slow down and start configuring,
OR slow down whilst coming down and catching the glide path at the same time?"
It is more efficient to get level and then decelerate. However, high speeds and high rates of descent at low level can be a bit dodgy.
"Flying in yesterday I was going to intercept the GS at 5000 feet, so I decided to slow down and configure. I realise I was about 16 miles away, and when I asked for flaps 1, the Captain told me it was too soon.
When I caught the GS, I had to extend the gear early because the Captain didn't give me the flaps when I asked, and the aircraft could not decelerate when it caught the GS."
It sounds like your Captain wasn't really doing you a favour. Going down the glide clean is never really recommended in my experience, however, there are one or two people who are happy go down at green dot if intercepting from, say, 17nm or something like you mention. In this case, expect the speed to increase and take gear out of sequence. This is exactly what you did which is fine, but I think the intentions of yours vs. captain should be established early with the brief, so that way you don't end up in a situation where you're wanting something that the other guy doesn't want to give. If you're uncomfortable then say so.
Hope that helps.
Ignoring whatever your company manual dictates regarding configuration gates, I use the following as a safe guide:
"When would you generally slow down from 250 knots on an average day?(considering no tail wind)."
Be at S-speed when intercepting the glide. The speed tends to 'hang' or increase a bit when you go down at 3 degrees, so intercepting the glide any faster than about 200kts can make life a bit difficult.
This all depends on where your intercept point lies. 250kt to 20nm is fine if you are decelerating in the descent. You can start a descent at 15nm sometimes.
I use 250kt/20nm/6000' and then adjust based on 1nm - 300ft - 10kt (level decel). Work around that triangle to adjust.
"Would you prefer to come down with a high speed to your platform altitude, level, and then slow down and start configuring,
OR slow down whilst coming down and catching the glide path at the same time?"
It is more efficient to get level and then decelerate. However, high speeds and high rates of descent at low level can be a bit dodgy.
"Flying in yesterday I was going to intercept the GS at 5000 feet, so I decided to slow down and configure. I realise I was about 16 miles away, and when I asked for flaps 1, the Captain told me it was too soon.
When I caught the GS, I had to extend the gear early because the Captain didn't give me the flaps when I asked, and the aircraft could not decelerate when it caught the GS."
It sounds like your Captain wasn't really doing you a favour. Going down the glide clean is never really recommended in my experience, however, there are one or two people who are happy go down at green dot if intercepting from, say, 17nm or something like you mention. In this case, expect the speed to increase and take gear out of sequence. This is exactly what you did which is fine, but I think the intentions of yours vs. captain should be established early with the brief, so that way you don't end up in a situation where you're wanting something that the other guy doesn't want to give. If you're uncomfortable then say so.
Hope that helps.
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Also -
Looks like you've been asking the same questions for a couple of years now:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/49054...ml#post7295447
Normally I'd say you might just be having a rough line training period, but if you don't know when to slow down from 250kt by now then I'm not sure we can help you much
Looks like you've been asking the same questions for a couple of years now:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/49054...ml#post7295447
Normally I'd say you might just be having a rough line training period, but if you don't know when to slow down from 250kt by now then I'm not sure we can help you much
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LOL thanks for the response.
Initially used to ask to prepare myself.
Took a long while till I started flying, and it's not that I do not know when to slow down, I handle it all very well now(my final stages of line training), but I just come across many people doing it differently.
Last week my CPT slowed down to green dot at 29 miles and asked for flaps 1 at 17 miles 2000 feet.
3 days ago I slowed down to green dot when I was downwind because I so no purpose to keep going farther away and the CPT suggested I keep 250 kts.
I'm just looking to see what others generally do.
I find it very uncomfortable to descend with the glide at anything other than F speed as well, and I wanted to see if it was in the norm to get down with the glide at 200 kts.
Again, thank you!
Initially used to ask to prepare myself.
Took a long while till I started flying, and it's not that I do not know when to slow down, I handle it all very well now(my final stages of line training), but I just come across many people doing it differently.
Last week my CPT slowed down to green dot at 29 miles and asked for flaps 1 at 17 miles 2000 feet.
3 days ago I slowed down to green dot when I was downwind because I so no purpose to keep going farther away and the CPT suggested I keep 250 kts.
I'm just looking to see what others generally do.
I find it very uncomfortable to descend with the glide at anything other than F speed as well, and I wanted to see if it was in the norm to get down with the glide at 200 kts.
Again, thank you!
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I don't know how slippery your aircraft is, but descending with the glide and decelerating is almost impossible, which is why when given the choice, I prefer to intercept from a lower altitude at a lower speed. I'll 'dive' at 250 to get there and it give myself between four to five miles (to slow up from 250 to Green Dot). But ATC normally interfere, so you end up flying en-economically (from a personal point of view) and complying with their requests.
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I aim for 180 kts(no wind)on the glide,if there is a 20 kts headwind i can accept 200 kts until about 7 miles..
If you are high initially use speed 250 below 10 and speed brakes but aim to catch the glide at a proper speed...if hou have to,decelerate to clean earlier,lower the gear then reassess your profile...if you are still too high throw in some flaps...if on profile,manage to do a continuous descent..
There are 1000 ways to skin a cat...cpatains should let fos fly and experiment within predefined aircraft limits and sops...
If you are high initially use speed 250 below 10 and speed brakes but aim to catch the glide at a proper speed...if hou have to,decelerate to clean earlier,lower the gear then reassess your profile...if you are still too high throw in some flaps...if on profile,manage to do a continuous descent..
There are 1000 ways to skin a cat...cpatains should let fos fly and experiment within predefined aircraft limits and sops...
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there are many ways to fly, but to be frank any of them will do. I've seen L1011's with gear down and flaps down from 17 miles out...following other planes of course and that's the way it has to be.
so, you must start to think, but think backwards. You certainly want to be at vref plus additives no later than 1000'/500' depending on visibility.
near the outer marker (five miles) gear down and half flaps or so.
so how do you get from 250 knots to the above?
on the glide 3000' agl is when you should be in a position to slow down...this is a tiny bit more than 10 miles from the runway.
I had the pleasure of flying one type that was quite easy to do 250 knots to the marker and still slow to Vref well prior to the runway.
apch flaps by 3000'
gear down 2000'
final flaps before 1000'
should hold you in good stead.
so, you must start to think, but think backwards. You certainly want to be at vref plus additives no later than 1000'/500' depending on visibility.
near the outer marker (five miles) gear down and half flaps or so.
so how do you get from 250 knots to the above?
on the glide 3000' agl is when you should be in a position to slow down...this is a tiny bit more than 10 miles from the runway.
I had the pleasure of flying one type that was quite easy to do 250 knots to the marker and still slow to Vref well prior to the runway.
apch flaps by 3000'
gear down 2000'
final flaps before 1000'
should hold you in good stead.
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I must say I am more than disappointed by some of these contributions.
As a residential dweller below approach paths to Heathrow I have much opportunity to witness approaches and experience noise generations by many similar types but very dissimilar airline configuration philosophies.
I am only considering the requirements of a stable approach and touchdown for the moment coupled with the demand for a 'quiet' approach. Forget Speed controls, profiles (high-low), technical,weather and company manuals for this debate and answer only one point!
"What is the latest safe, sensible time/distance with noise abatement in mind, to select the gear down?"
Perhaps ,also I should also ignore any pilot aptitude criteria!
Be assured there seems to be a wide interpretation of this question and before I get the abuse i should claim some 22,000 hrs+ on a variety
of types mostly heavy.
As a residential dweller below approach paths to Heathrow I have much opportunity to witness approaches and experience noise generations by many similar types but very dissimilar airline configuration philosophies.
I am only considering the requirements of a stable approach and touchdown for the moment coupled with the demand for a 'quiet' approach. Forget Speed controls, profiles (high-low), technical,weather and company manuals for this debate and answer only one point!
"What is the latest safe, sensible time/distance with noise abatement in mind, to select the gear down?"
Perhaps ,also I should also ignore any pilot aptitude criteria!
Be assured there seems to be a wide interpretation of this question and before I get the abuse i should claim some 22,000 hrs+ on a variety
of types mostly heavy.
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Gee... While we're "forgetting about" technical considerations, weather, and company manuals, and ONLY considering your "demand" for noise abatement, why not just use disposable airplanes without landing gear, and "forget about" injury to passengers and damage to airplanes and airports...
How long/far does it take for the gear to come down, airplane to decelerate to landing flap speed, extend the landing flaps, decelerate to final approach speed, and stabilize at that speed? Add that to the nominal 1000' or 3 NM from the airport for the stabilized approach minima, then add an appropriate safety factor (50% seems to be popular in commercial aviation).
How long/far does it take for the gear to come down, airplane to decelerate to landing flap speed, extend the landing flaps, decelerate to final approach speed, and stabilize at that speed? Add that to the nominal 1000' or 3 NM from the airport for the stabilized approach minima, then add an appropriate safety factor (50% seems to be popular in commercial aviation).
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If you let me choose the speed and profile, I'll do an idle descent attempting to arrive just under the glide at six miles. At 2,000' the first notch of flaps will pop out and lower the gear at five miles. The power will come up at about 1,200' unless I can do a visual, when it will be a little later.
There are 1000 ways to skin a cat...cpatains should let fos fly and experiment within predefined aircraft limits and sops...
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A little surprised to hear that from you Centaurus. From reading your other posts I understand your a proponent of competence and manual handling skills. So how are FOs supposed to obtain that competence unless they're allowed to "experiment" a little within limits. One of the most annoying things is when the captain puts the hand on the flap lever indicating it's time for flaps, despite your best intuition. Later to realize you have to drag yourself forward below the profile. That's essentially what the OP is asking.
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On the bus if left to my own devices I will back calculate 1nm for ever 300' from the glide path intercept and 1nm per 10 knots speed reduction to S speed. So for a 1500' agl glide path intercept and initial speed of 250 kias I will use managed speed and begin speed reduction at about twelve miles.
If it's not a 3degree glide path I take that into account as well as any large variations or shifts in wind and ground speed.
If it's not a 3degree glide path I take that into account as well as any large variations or shifts in wind and ground speed.
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As an 'old timer', now retired and without any flying experience for some 14 years, I find myself somewhat perplexed and concerned by this thread.
From what s/he wrote, it seems the OP, friend 'meatlover', is a pilot recently out of initial training on the A320 and now in the final stages of Line Training. Presumably, then, 'meatlover' has successfully progressed through simulator training and checking and has passed his/her Base Check on the type. Yet meatlover seems quite confused as to the correct answers to the rather simple questions he/she has put.
Why is this so? How is it possible that such a recently trained F/O is apparently lacking the knowledge required to find the answers without having to resort to this website to seek advice from a plethora of strangers whose skills and qualifications are claimed anonymously?
Assuming you are not just winding us up, meatlover, I recommend you should first consult your company's regulator-approved Operations Manual and its SOPs. If you cannot find the answers there then your next port-of-call should be to your Chief Pilot or your trainers. If worth their salt, they should bend over backwards to answer your queries and explain the logic applied so that you can absorb and retain the relevant facts with respect to appropriate, and compliant, operation of the type you are flying.
FWIW and in my ever humble opinion, ALL your Line Training Captains should be doing things precisely the same way. Come to that, all your Line Captains should be too. If not, then none of them should hold the positions they do.
Surely the Line Training Captain who told you it was too early for flaps took the time once the flight was over and you were debriefing to explain in detail why he said that. And did you not ask that same Captain to provide the answers to all the questions you have put to us here?
The way this thread has progressed leaves me with enormous concern with respect to flying as a pax on airlines crewed by some of the posters here. But then maybe, just maybe, some posters here ain't what they make themselves out to be.
As an important aside, I agree completely with friend 'Centaurus'. Line flying is not the place for experimentation of any kind. Any airline pilot, whether Captain or F/O, who thinks it is really ought to be grounded - permanently!
From what s/he wrote, it seems the OP, friend 'meatlover', is a pilot recently out of initial training on the A320 and now in the final stages of Line Training. Presumably, then, 'meatlover' has successfully progressed through simulator training and checking and has passed his/her Base Check on the type. Yet meatlover seems quite confused as to the correct answers to the rather simple questions he/she has put.
Why is this so? How is it possible that such a recently trained F/O is apparently lacking the knowledge required to find the answers without having to resort to this website to seek advice from a plethora of strangers whose skills and qualifications are claimed anonymously?
Assuming you are not just winding us up, meatlover, I recommend you should first consult your company's regulator-approved Operations Manual and its SOPs. If you cannot find the answers there then your next port-of-call should be to your Chief Pilot or your trainers. If worth their salt, they should bend over backwards to answer your queries and explain the logic applied so that you can absorb and retain the relevant facts with respect to appropriate, and compliant, operation of the type you are flying.
FWIW and in my ever humble opinion, ALL your Line Training Captains should be doing things precisely the same way. Come to that, all your Line Captains should be too. If not, then none of them should hold the positions they do.
Surely the Line Training Captain who told you it was too early for flaps took the time once the flight was over and you were debriefing to explain in detail why he said that. And did you not ask that same Captain to provide the answers to all the questions you have put to us here?
The way this thread has progressed leaves me with enormous concern with respect to flying as a pax on airlines crewed by some of the posters here. But then maybe, just maybe, some posters here ain't what they make themselves out to be.
As an important aside, I agree completely with friend 'Centaurus'. Line flying is not the place for experimentation of any kind. Any airline pilot, whether Captain or F/O, who thinks it is really ought to be grounded - permanently!
Last edited by Rhum Mk2; 18th May 2014 at 17:38.
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As an important aside, I agree completely with friend 'Centaurus'. Line flying is not the place for experimentation of any kind. Any airline pilot, whether Captain or F/O, who thinks it is really ought to be grounded - permanently!
By "experiment" i meant,please excuse me RHUM if you are too old for the technical terms following,that if a first officer decides to use speedbrake for increasing his rate of descent rather than configuring a bit earlier or using Level change mode instead of Vnav for his own reason...if decides to ask for flaps earlier then uou would,,,just let him be!!!as long as he stays within parameters defined by the airline/airport...let him "experiment"!! Keep your hands on your laps and let him think for himself.
The way this thread has progressed leaves me with enormous concern with respect to flying as a pax on airlines crewed by some of the posters here. But then maybe, just maybe, some posters here ain't what they make themselves out to be.
FWIW and in my ever humble opinion, ALL your Line Training Captains should be doing things precisely the same way. Come to that, all your Line Captains should be too. If not, then none of them should hold the positions they do.
Maybe you should refresh your glamorified view of your,albeit old,pilot experience..
Why is this so? How is it possible that such a recently trained F/O is apparently lacking the knowledge required to find the answers without having to resort to this website to seek advice from a plethora of strangers whose skills and qualifications are claimed anonymously?
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Thanks for your well reasoned, polite, and intelligent response, 'de facto'. 
You certainly contribute to my point that many posters here are merely strangers whose skills and qualifications are claimed anonymously. If you are what you claim to be in your public profile then I can imagine you are just one bundle of fun to fly with.
I think everyone here knows the correct meaning of the word 'experiment'. If you meant to write something of a different meaning then you should have done so. I repeat: 'Line flying is not the place for experimentation of any kind'. If you don't agree with that then you really ought to have your licence permanently removed.
You certainly contribute to my point that many posters here are merely strangers whose skills and qualifications are claimed anonymously. If you are what you claim to be in your public profile then I can imagine you are just one bundle of fun to fly with.
I think everyone here knows the correct meaning of the word 'experiment'. If you meant to write something of a different meaning then you should have done so. I repeat: 'Line flying is not the place for experimentation of any kind'. If you don't agree with that then you really ought to have your licence permanently removed.
