Why do pilots think they deserve a free pass?
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Why do pilots think they deserve a free pass?
In the latest, most notorious thread, there is much hue and cry about laying off the pilots...including any investigation of the pilots.
Please tell me why pilots are any different from ship masters, or railroad engineers, or anyone else in public transportation when it comes to accident investigation?
Lets face it, pilots are not immune to amoral behavior. My own flight instructor was a senior pilot for a now defunct but historic airline...and he was a raging alcoholic whenever he was more than 24 hours from a cockpit. We have more than ample evidence, some most recent, that pilots are more than capable of hijacking their own aircraft, or indeed...committing suicide with an unwitting planeload of passengers.
So please forgive me for asking, but what exactly gives you guys the right to believe you've earned any kind of special exemptions? You're all human beings, and you have colleagues that have proven themselves of enormous f??k ups. A quick scan of the NTSB archives shows that pilot error is a factor in most accidents...so why do you believe that pilots should be exempt from the fray? Or is it just that it hits too close to home?
Please tell me why pilots are any different from ship masters, or railroad engineers, or anyone else in public transportation when it comes to accident investigation?
Lets face it, pilots are not immune to amoral behavior. My own flight instructor was a senior pilot for a now defunct but historic airline...and he was a raging alcoholic whenever he was more than 24 hours from a cockpit. We have more than ample evidence, some most recent, that pilots are more than capable of hijacking their own aircraft, or indeed...committing suicide with an unwitting planeload of passengers.
So please forgive me for asking, but what exactly gives you guys the right to believe you've earned any kind of special exemptions? You're all human beings, and you have colleagues that have proven themselves of enormous f??k ups. A quick scan of the NTSB archives shows that pilot error is a factor in most accidents...so why do you believe that pilots should be exempt from the fray? Or is it just that it hits too close to home?
Nobody is saying that.
The point is that the involvement is being beat up by the media.
The classic example is the flight sim allusion. The guy had a a computer with 3 screens, THAT IS NOT A FLIGHTSIM.
Some people reconstruct the entire thing button for button, this was nothing in comparison.
In fact I have seen guys with more complex car sims than that.
They are clutching at straws at the moment by trying to blame the pilots.
That actually is not illegal, so I am not sure what your point is there.
Anyway time will tell.
The point is that the involvement is being beat up by the media.
The classic example is the flight sim allusion. The guy had a a computer with 3 screens, THAT IS NOT A FLIGHTSIM.
Some people reconstruct the entire thing button for button, this was nothing in comparison.
In fact I have seen guys with more complex car sims than that.
They are clutching at straws at the moment by trying to blame the pilots.
My own flight instructor was a senior pilot for a now defunct but historic airline...and he was a raging alcoholic whenever he was more than 24 hours from a cockpit
Anyway time will tell.
SalNichols94807
Nope I won't forgive you - you pompous old fart. As neville said - its the way the media are using it.
The First Officer = gosh he must be the one because he had his picture taken in the flight deck, with a few tarts 7 years ago!! Yup - that shows behavior consistent with terrorism.
The Capt - he had a home made flight simulator - holy smokes - he is the one - infact lets go check out all captains of public transport aircraft and if they have a home made flight simulator let the Daily mail know because sure as sheet he is unstable.
Pompous old fart!
Nope I won't forgive you - you pompous old fart. As neville said - its the way the media are using it.
The First Officer = gosh he must be the one because he had his picture taken in the flight deck, with a few tarts 7 years ago!! Yup - that shows behavior consistent with terrorism.
The Capt - he had a home made flight simulator - holy smokes - he is the one - infact lets go check out all captains of public transport aircraft and if they have a home made flight simulator let the Daily mail know because sure as sheet he is unstable.
Pompous old fart!
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The objection I have is not to the professional investigators looking into these matters; they are legitimate avenues of inquiry in any investigation. The NTSB does this regularly and they do it in a discreet and professional manner looking for personal factors in crews that may have had a contributory effect in an accident.
What I do have a problem with is sensationalist media and others speculating and stripping the crew of any presumption of innocence by concocting lurid theories based on nothing more than pure conjecture based on a few facts that may have utterly nothing to do with this incident. Like the passengers, they've left grieving families behind as well and I imagine this groundless speculation is adding to their pain.
Moreover, there is a history of scapegoating pilots. TWA flight 260 in the 1950s is one example where suicide was initially determined to be the cause and the report later had to be revised in light of new evidence that proved the cause was defective navigational equipment. In the interregnum that took years, the pilot's widow received death threats. There are many other cases where lax investigations took the easy way out by dubiously attributing the cause to "pilot error".
In short, this is a sensitive subject that should be left to professionals to look into rather than amateur speculators and the media. If there's something to this, it will come out. If there isn't, why trash the reputations of people who aren't around to defend themselves?
What I do have a problem with is sensationalist media and others speculating and stripping the crew of any presumption of innocence by concocting lurid theories based on nothing more than pure conjecture based on a few facts that may have utterly nothing to do with this incident. Like the passengers, they've left grieving families behind as well and I imagine this groundless speculation is adding to their pain.
Moreover, there is a history of scapegoating pilots. TWA flight 260 in the 1950s is one example where suicide was initially determined to be the cause and the report later had to be revised in light of new evidence that proved the cause was defective navigational equipment. In the interregnum that took years, the pilot's widow received death threats. There are many other cases where lax investigations took the easy way out by dubiously attributing the cause to "pilot error".
In short, this is a sensitive subject that should be left to professionals to look into rather than amateur speculators and the media. If there's something to this, it will come out. If there isn't, why trash the reputations of people who aren't around to defend themselves?
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There's another infamous incident from the 1950s where the autopsies of the pilots, (both killed in the accident), found both with high levels of alcohol in their blood/stomachs. Case solved, airline absolved, pilot error.
Later - much later, and after the reputations of both pilots were thrashed and much more besides (life insurance payouts refused etc), a similar accident occurred and both (dead) pilots were again found to have high levels of alcohol - but a passenger, (or it might have been a flight attendant), who survived, said that that did not make sense, as he/she had been talking with both pilots immediately before the approach and neither showed any signs of being drunk.
An investigator discovered that the anti ice system tank - containing heavily alcohol-based fluid - was located above and behind the cockpit, and in both accidents, the tank had ruptured and the pilots had been drenched, and quite possibly drowned, in the fluid.
MAS and the Malaysian Government are using the oldest escape clause in the aviation handbook - blame the pilot - to take the spotlight away from the company and the government and to avoid having to answer uncomfortable questions about this incident - answers, some of which, I suspect they already know, but they are doing everything in their power to see that the questions that will lead to those answers being made public are not asked.
Their unwillingness to come clean in the first few days with facts they simply must have known has wasted an enormous amount of money and expert SAR resources searching in areas they KNEW the aircraft did not crash. I hope the nations who provided those valuable - and wasted - SAR resources send them the bill for this wasted effort.
Later - much later, and after the reputations of both pilots were thrashed and much more besides (life insurance payouts refused etc), a similar accident occurred and both (dead) pilots were again found to have high levels of alcohol - but a passenger, (or it might have been a flight attendant), who survived, said that that did not make sense, as he/she had been talking with both pilots immediately before the approach and neither showed any signs of being drunk.
An investigator discovered that the anti ice system tank - containing heavily alcohol-based fluid - was located above and behind the cockpit, and in both accidents, the tank had ruptured and the pilots had been drenched, and quite possibly drowned, in the fluid.
MAS and the Malaysian Government are using the oldest escape clause in the aviation handbook - blame the pilot - to take the spotlight away from the company and the government and to avoid having to answer uncomfortable questions about this incident - answers, some of which, I suspect they already know, but they are doing everything in their power to see that the questions that will lead to those answers being made public are not asked.
Their unwillingness to come clean in the first few days with facts they simply must have known has wasted an enormous amount of money and expert SAR resources searching in areas they KNEW the aircraft did not crash. I hope the nations who provided those valuable - and wasted - SAR resources send them the bill for this wasted effort.
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Pprune: PROFESIONAL PILOTS Rumours Network
In a crash such as this one it is understandable that some (a lot) of non profesional pilots are atracted to this site in search of further information. It is questionable and often embarrasing why some of them (way too many) feel the need to pass opinion on things about which they know almost nothing about.
What it is objectionable is when they go further and launch into libelous character assasinations of profesional pilots (or others) with total disregard of both the known facts and their ignorance of the subject matter.
Would you go into a meeting of surgeons and start throwing around acusations of criminal intent at one of them because a complex operation that you do not fully understand got complications?
Air travel has an impressive safety record which has developed as a result of increasingly complex safety management systems. People in this industry understand that incidents and accidents come about as the interaction of many factors that manage to overcome the many barriers of protection. "The pilot did it!", even if in the final analisys turned out to be partially true, does not even begin to answer the many questions about the cultural, corporate, commercial, environmental, regulatory, system design, behavioural, medical, cognitive, psychological and other interacting factors that led to the event. Understanding those interactions is what has allowed us to enjoy our remarkable safety record. Because we know the system is complex we are cautious to lay blame until all the facts are know and understood. Unlike others that are happy to broadcast their ignorance and stupidity.
There are plenty of other websites where non profesional pilots can discuss all sort of conspiracy theories unencumbered by the facts.
You can try here:
Missing Malaysia Airlines plane WAS hijacked, says official | Mail Online
In a crash such as this one it is understandable that some (a lot) of non profesional pilots are atracted to this site in search of further information. It is questionable and often embarrasing why some of them (way too many) feel the need to pass opinion on things about which they know almost nothing about.
What it is objectionable is when they go further and launch into libelous character assasinations of profesional pilots (or others) with total disregard of both the known facts and their ignorance of the subject matter.
Would you go into a meeting of surgeons and start throwing around acusations of criminal intent at one of them because a complex operation that you do not fully understand got complications?
Air travel has an impressive safety record which has developed as a result of increasingly complex safety management systems. People in this industry understand that incidents and accidents come about as the interaction of many factors that manage to overcome the many barriers of protection. "The pilot did it!", even if in the final analisys turned out to be partially true, does not even begin to answer the many questions about the cultural, corporate, commercial, environmental, regulatory, system design, behavioural, medical, cognitive, psychological and other interacting factors that led to the event. Understanding those interactions is what has allowed us to enjoy our remarkable safety record. Because we know the system is complex we are cautious to lay blame until all the facts are know and understood. Unlike others that are happy to broadcast their ignorance and stupidity.
There are plenty of other websites where non profesional pilots can discuss all sort of conspiracy theories unencumbered by the facts.
You can try here:
Missing Malaysia Airlines plane WAS hijacked, says official | Mail Online
Last edited by Elephant and Castle; 17th Mar 2014 at 08:04.
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sal
listen. exactly what makes you know the pilots of the 777 are guilty?
do you have special information that I or thousands of real airline pilots have?
you speak of your flight instructor. are you taking lessons?
there are special rules for alcoholic or should I say recovering alcoholic pilots that do allow them to fly. SOBER.
(and no, I'm not one of them)
Pilots are always investigated in any accident. WE NEVER GET A FREE PASS.
BUT YOU better have more information than a 27 year old who likes girls.
And a 53 year old who has computers set up to duplicate an airplane.
And if you did any research you might find out that non US airlines do allow visitors to the cockpit. While inflight and even allow smoking. And I'll bet malayasian allowed it three years ago when no one gave a darn.
We don't here in the USA and we have learned to live with it. BUT I HAD JOHN GLENN on a flight and he rode in coach though I sure wanted to offer him the jumpseat.
AIRLINE PILOTS are the first to point a finger at a weak sister or crummy pilot. Investigators last week said they were looking at an inflight breakup. things change. THIS investigation seems to react to media inputs more than reality.
What level of pilot are you ?
listen. exactly what makes you know the pilots of the 777 are guilty?
do you have special information that I or thousands of real airline pilots have?
you speak of your flight instructor. are you taking lessons?
there are special rules for alcoholic or should I say recovering alcoholic pilots that do allow them to fly. SOBER.
(and no, I'm not one of them)
Pilots are always investigated in any accident. WE NEVER GET A FREE PASS.
BUT YOU better have more information than a 27 year old who likes girls.
And a 53 year old who has computers set up to duplicate an airplane.
And if you did any research you might find out that non US airlines do allow visitors to the cockpit. While inflight and even allow smoking. And I'll bet malayasian allowed it three years ago when no one gave a darn.
We don't here in the USA and we have learned to live with it. BUT I HAD JOHN GLENN on a flight and he rode in coach though I sure wanted to offer him the jumpseat.
AIRLINE PILOTS are the first to point a finger at a weak sister or crummy pilot. Investigators last week said they were looking at an inflight breakup. things change. THIS investigation seems to react to media inputs more than reality.
What level of pilot are you ?
Professional pilots rumour network - rip
I have been following the thread on the disappearence on MH370: It is the worst discussion that I have ever seen on PPRuNE, what was once a forum for PROFESSIONAL pilots. Sadly what could have been an informed discussion about an event with far reaching consequences has descended into conspiracy theory nonsence which has no place here. The majority of posts are made by amateurs who have little understanding of anything to do with aviation, let alone professionals employed in the business.
For those that do not know, aircraft accidents and incidents are investigated in light of FACTS, not unsubstantiated rumours. What happened, why it happened and what can be done to prevent a repetition. It is by following such principles that the industry has achieved a remarkable level of flight safety, and by continuing to apply these principles the standard can not only be maintained, but also improved.
When the FACTS are ascertained recommendations can and will be made. Until that stage is reached I do not believe that it is appropriate to persecute someone whose relatives are grieving just as much as everyone else who lost loved ones on the flight.
With regard to the original question, it is based on an assumption that I do not consider valid. A bit like asking "Do you still beat your wife?".
For those that do not know, aircraft accidents and incidents are investigated in light of FACTS, not unsubstantiated rumours. What happened, why it happened and what can be done to prevent a repetition. It is by following such principles that the industry has achieved a remarkable level of flight safety, and by continuing to apply these principles the standard can not only be maintained, but also improved.
When the FACTS are ascertained recommendations can and will be made. Until that stage is reached I do not believe that it is appropriate to persecute someone whose relatives are grieving just as much as everyone else who lost loved ones on the flight.
With regard to the original question, it is based on an assumption that I do not consider valid. A bit like asking "Do you still beat your wife?".
Last edited by 10002level; 17th Mar 2014 at 10:11. Reason: additional comment
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The objection I have is not to the professional investigators looking into these matters; they are legitimate avenues of inquiry in any investigation. The NTSB does this regularly and they do it in a discreet and professional manner looking for personal factors in crews that may have had a contributory effect in an accident.
What I do have a problem with is sensationalist media and others speculating and stripping the crew of any presumption of innocence by concocting lurid theories based on nothing more than pure conjecture based on a few facts that may have utterly nothing to do with this incident. Like the passengers, they've left grieving families behind as well and I imagine this groundless speculation is adding to their pain.
Moreover, there is a history of scapegoating pilots. TWA flight 260 in the 1950s is one example where suicide was initially determined to be the cause and the report later had to be revised in light of new evidence that proved the cause was defective navigational equipment. In the interregnum that took years, the pilot's widow received death threats. There are many other cases where lax investigations took the easy way out by dubiously attributing the cause to "pilot error".
In short, this is a sensitive subject that should be left to professionals to look into rather than amateur speculators and the media. If there's something to this, it will come out. If there isn't, why trash the reputations of people who aren't around to defend themselves?
What I do have a problem with is sensationalist media and others speculating and stripping the crew of any presumption of innocence by concocting lurid theories based on nothing more than pure conjecture based on a few facts that may have utterly nothing to do with this incident. Like the passengers, they've left grieving families behind as well and I imagine this groundless speculation is adding to their pain.
Moreover, there is a history of scapegoating pilots. TWA flight 260 in the 1950s is one example where suicide was initially determined to be the cause and the report later had to be revised in light of new evidence that proved the cause was defective navigational equipment. In the interregnum that took years, the pilot's widow received death threats. There are many other cases where lax investigations took the easy way out by dubiously attributing the cause to "pilot error".
In short, this is a sensitive subject that should be left to professionals to look into rather than amateur speculators and the media. If there's something to this, it will come out. If there isn't, why trash the reputations of people who aren't around to defend themselves?
Until pilots allow continual cockpit video, CVR and DFDR recordings to be streamed to a safety agency like NTSB, expect pilots to be blamed; it's the easy way out for inquiries.
I fully expect the cumulative outcome of the MH370 and AF447 to build pressure to have continual streaming from the aircraft out of the control of the pilot (or hijacker). Any attempt to cut the streaming would be treated as a Mayday event and, like flying with SSR inoperative, flying without streaming recordings would not be allowed without special dispensation.
Ian W
I would rather they spent the money stopping these events happening rather than knowing what might be happening through the eyes of a camera. A misinterpretation by a nervous ground official could lead to a shoot down event or horrible utube postings of a crews final moments.
The only places I would like to see cameras, is in the cargo holds and that doesn't even look like happening.
I would rather they spent the money stopping these events happening rather than knowing what might be happening through the eyes of a camera. A misinterpretation by a nervous ground official could lead to a shoot down event or horrible utube postings of a crews final moments.
The only places I would like to see cameras, is in the cargo holds and that doesn't even look like happening.
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Why do pilots think they deserve a free pass?
In the latest, most notorious thread, there is much hue and cry about laying off the pilots...including any investigation of the pilots.
Please tell me why pilots are any different from ship masters, or railroad engineers, or anyone else in public transportation when it comes to accident investigation?
Lets face it, pilots are not immune to amoral behavior. My own flight instructor was a senior pilot for a now defunct but historic airline...and he was a raging alcoholic whenever he was more than 24 hours from a cockpit. We have more than ample evidence, some most recent, that pilots are more than capable of hijacking their own aircraft, or indeed...committing suicide with an unwitting planeload of passengers.
So please forgive me for asking, but what exactly gives you guys the right to believe you've earned any kind of special exemptions? You're all human beings, and you have colleagues that have proven themselves of enormous f??k ups. A quick scan of the NTSB archives shows that pilot error is a factor in most accidents...so why do you believe that pilots should be exempt from the fray? Or is it just that it hits too close to home?
In the latest, most notorious thread, there is much hue and cry about laying off the pilots...including any investigation of the pilots.
Please tell me why pilots are any different from ship masters, or railroad engineers, or anyone else in public transportation when it comes to accident investigation?
Lets face it, pilots are not immune to amoral behavior. My own flight instructor was a senior pilot for a now defunct but historic airline...and he was a raging alcoholic whenever he was more than 24 hours from a cockpit. We have more than ample evidence, some most recent, that pilots are more than capable of hijacking their own aircraft, or indeed...committing suicide with an unwitting planeload of passengers.
So please forgive me for asking, but what exactly gives you guys the right to believe you've earned any kind of special exemptions? You're all human beings, and you have colleagues that have proven themselves of enormous f??k ups. A quick scan of the NTSB archives shows that pilot error is a factor in most accidents...so why do you believe that pilots should be exempt from the fray? Or is it just that it hits too close to home?
You are obviously not a Professional Pilot so you probably shouldn't be here!
Hey Sal, are you sure you're not Abe Simpson?!?
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Sal - old chap.
NOBODY has a free pass. Not even pilots. Go grind your axe elsewhere. Your misinformed statement has no place here. What people are finding frustrating is that there is a huge number of misinformed, sensationalist, delusional wannabe's and non-pilots posting utter cr@p on these forums. They can't even be bothered using Google to research their, in some cases, ridiculous rants.
Maybe some of your energy should be directed at the people who knowingly misdirected the search efforts for several days following the disappearance.
Ian W
"...people like controllers have their displays recorded and open microphone recording continually.."
Pilots already have their whole flight (sound) recorded by the CVR. Their displays are also effectively recorded too by FDR's.
As for the live streaming, talk to the airlines. Don't blame the pilots. The cost would be prohibitive and I can guarantee that NO airline would wear the cost in this day and age.
NOBODY has a free pass. Not even pilots. Go grind your axe elsewhere. Your misinformed statement has no place here. What people are finding frustrating is that there is a huge number of misinformed, sensationalist, delusional wannabe's and non-pilots posting utter cr@p on these forums. They can't even be bothered using Google to research their, in some cases, ridiculous rants.
Maybe some of your energy should be directed at the people who knowingly misdirected the search efforts for several days following the disappearance.
Ian W
"...people like controllers have their displays recorded and open microphone recording continually.."
Pilots already have their whole flight (sound) recorded by the CVR. Their displays are also effectively recorded too by FDR's.
As for the live streaming, talk to the airlines. Don't blame the pilots. The cost would be prohibitive and I can guarantee that NO airline would wear the cost in this day and age.
