FAA Hold Question

[Pin Head]

Hi

Struggling with the way holds are described.

Given this;

“...CLEARED TO THE ABC VORTAC. HOLD WEST ON THE TWO SEVEN ZERO RADIAL...”

Assuming a standard right hand hold, what is the inbound QDM/track of the hold?

I am happy with the three different types of hold join.

[OhNoCB]

I have limited experience. I have also never had a hold described that way to me before.

With that aside, I would think that as it says "hold west" then you would have to be holding west of the vortac, so 270 outbound and 090 inbound.

[Natstrackalpha]

Also, there is no . . fix,

also there is no DME, given

- this will be a juicy thread.

Also, is there not a rule which says if holding on a radial then radial inbound is the considered inbound track TO A FIX and not having been given a FIX then the VORTAC is it which makes your right turn to be to, the South - yep. and your inbound track to the beacon is --->090---?

So, we can hold inbound to the beacon on the 270 radial?

It is a kind of tacky question because: Quote: If the holding pattern is charted and the controller doesn't issue complete holding instructions, the pilot is expected to hold as depicted on the appropriate chart. When the pattern is charted, the controller may omit all holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement AS PUBLISHED; e.g., HOLD EAST AS PUBLISHED. Controllers shall always issue complete holding instructions when pilots request them.

If no holding pattern is charted and holding instructions have not been issued, the pilot should ask ATC for holding instructions prior to reaching the fix. This procedure will eliminate the possibility of an aircraft entering a holding pattern other than that desired by ATC. If unable to obtain holding instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), then enter a standard pattern on the course on which the aircraft approached the fix and request further clearance as soon as possible. In this event, the altitude/flight level of the aircraft at the clearance limit will be protected so that separation will be provided as required. Quoted from Atlas Aviation

normally you would get "hold to the northwest of abc vortac on the 270 radial . . ." and there you have it. Out 270 right turn North onto Track 090 right turn at the facility (or before preferably) onto the 270 Radial.

yadda, yadda, yadda " . .hold south west of the abc vortac on the 270 radial . ."

inbound track to the beacon 090 (on the 270 radial) right through South onto 270 (but not on the radial itself) ok?

[Natstrackalpha]

OK465

Yeh, gottit, thank you very much . . .

[Pin Head]

It's a faa question.

Kind of sums up US flight laws, at times, very confusing.

[Intruder]

IMO, it's a straightforward question. The fix is the clearance limit -- ABC VORTAC. The inbound track is defined by the 270 radial and "hold west" clearance -- 090. If you can assume standard turns, you can also assume standard leg length.

[Pin Head]

Thanks intruder.

So 090 inbound, right hand turns and 270 outbound?

[Intruder]

...for 1 or 1.5 minutes, depending on altitude.

[604guy]

I dunno folks.......it seems a pretty straightforward clearance albeit it is missing an altitude and a further clearance time.

[Tinstaafl]

Pinhead, think of it like this:
There will be
* a fix - the aid + bearing + distance, or just the aid.
* there will be a general direction from the fix to where the hold is (E, W, SE, etc). The fix could be a bearing+distance so a given radial can have two opposite holds, one either side of the fix.
* there will be a radial on which align the hold
* a turn direction. If not given then standard RH
* a time or distance limit. If not given then standard 1 or 1.5 min, as appropriate
* an altitude. If not given then presume current altitude

with this example:

'Hold west of the ABC 270 radial 20 DME'

of the ABC -- the beacon. Self explanatory
270 radial 20 DME. -- the fix w.r.t the beacon.
Hold west -- if you're west of the fix you must fly eastward to get to the fix. On the 270 radial that must be 090 inbound to the fix.

No turn given so defaults to standard RH
No time given so defaults to standard 1/1.5 min
No altitude given so maintain current altitude (you haven't been cleared to a new altitude)

Now compare that to:

'Hold EAST of the ABC 270 radial 20 DME'

and work out the difference.

[surplus1]

Struggling with the way holds are described.

Given this;

“...CLEARED TO THE ABC VORTAC. HOLD WEST ON THE TWO SEVEN ZERO RADIAL...”

Assuming a standard right hand hold, what is the inbound QDM/track of the hold?

I am happy with the three different types of hold join.

This is pretty straightforward so there's no reason for you to struggle. Think of yourself as flying over a big circle drawn on the ground. The VORTAC is the center of that circle and you can be anywhere with respect to it (there are 360 radials extending from that center). However there is only ONE place where you are directly over the center - that is the VOR itself. In this case the VOR is the "fix" or position where your holding pattern will begin,

You have been told to "HOLD WEST ON THE 270 RADIAL". The Holding Pattern will always begin at a "fix". In this case the fix is the VOR so, again, everything begins at that point.

The 270 radial is the only radial that is directly WEST of the VORTAC. That is why the term "WEST" was used in your instructions. Additionally the 270 radial was named (that eliminates all ambiguity since there is only ONE 270 radial and it is always WEST of the VOR). There is no way you can confuse it with any other radial.

There is also no way that you can hold EAST of the VOR and be on the 270 radial since that radial begins and ends at the VOR.

Regadless of where you are, you must first go to the VOR to begin the pattern. At that point you will have to decide how to maneuver your aircraft to get on the 270 radial [you said you know how to do that]. You can be on the 270 heading away from the VOR or towards the VOR. Since you were told to hold ON THE 270 RADIAL, you must position yourself on the radial - flying towards the VOR.

If you are anywhere on the 270 radial, there is only ONE WAY that you can get to the VOR and stay on that radial at the same time. That is by flying inbound with a track of 090. Again, there is no ambiguity - it doesn't matter whether you make right turns or left turns (as you maneuver) - the inbound track will still be 090 if you are on the 270 radial.

You were not told if you should make right turns or left turns as you fly around the race track pattern. But, you know that right turns are "standard". Therefore as you fly around the racetrack you will make right turns to get back to the 270 radial. That's all there is to it.

There are at least two other factors that you need to memorize with respect to holding patterns (that do not involve the use of DME or GPS). 1) Timing of the inbound leg = below 14,000 ft MSL = 1 minute. Above 14,000 ft MSL = 1.5 minutes. 2) Maximum airspeed: MHA - 6,000 feet = 200 KIAS; 6,001 - 14,000 feet = 230 KIAS; 14,001 feet and above 265 KIAS. These values are all "standard".

In addition to the direction of turns, there are several other non-standard patterns/practices. These are depicted on charts or given to you by controllers. If in doubt at any time do not hesitate to ask. You need to know what you're going to do and be at the right speed at least 3 minutes before you get to the holding fix.

Remember that all holding patterns have an imaginary overlay of "protected airspace". This protected airspace is designed to separate you from other aircraft or to protect you from obstructions. It is much bigger on the holding side (outbound) of the inbound track than on the non-holding (inbound) side. You must obey the holding restrictions which will keep your aircraft within the protected airspace.

[flarepilot]

don't forget that in NY center airspace holding speeds are different.


this is a very straight forward clearance, your present altitude is the altitude assignment

you should be given this in plenty of time to slow to holding speed


always get an expect further clearance time

oh, and don't forget to compensate for wind!!! you always hold towards a fix.

I have received only ONE incorrectly worded holding clearance and it was done shortly after the controller strike, so let's blame a new controller for that one. I challenged the controller and he just vectored me for a delay vector.