ATC transfer point once airborne.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2013
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From: UK
ATC transfer point once airborne.
Hi,
I work as a controller at a UK airport. As a matter of interest... What is the preferred point of transfer from Tower to Radar, in VMC?
I have always used 1000ft on QNH as my rule of thumb, enough time to get gear up and in the turn. Now we have a new procedure calling for, not until aircraft reaches 2000ft.
Any views from pilots appreciated. If you are able to tell me your outfit, if not airframe, it all would help.
Thanks.
I work as a controller at a UK airport. As a matter of interest... What is the preferred point of transfer from Tower to Radar, in VMC?
I have always used 1000ft on QNH as my rule of thumb, enough time to get gear up and in the turn. Now we have a new procedure calling for, not until aircraft reaches 2000ft.
Any views from pilots appreciated. If you are able to tell me your outfit, if not airframe, it all would help.
Thanks.
Joined: Nov 1999
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Getting the "gear up" isn't the full story. At 1000ft (QFE) we are usually setting climb power, engaging automatics, and starting the flap retraction process. It is a busy time in the cockpit, and not having to add R/T frequency changes is most definitely of assistance.
2000 ft (or higher) is indeed preferable to a lower altitude.
It was one of things that was advantageous for ATC personnel to see for themselves in the days when more of them came along for educational flight deck trips. These are still possible but rarely used these days, which is a shame.
2000 ft (or higher) is indeed preferable to a lower altitude.
It was one of things that was advantageous for ATC personnel to see for themselves in the days when more of them came along for educational flight deck trips. These are still possible but rarely used these days, which is a shame.
Last edited by Bealzebub; 8th September 2013 at 10:05.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 9
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From: UK
Thanks for your input.
Yes, those 'fam' flights offered at my own unit are rarely availed of. Once during my training I had one. Possibly time for another now, from a more experienced perspective.
Yes, those 'fam' flights offered at my own unit are rarely availed of. Once during my training I had one. Possibly time for another now, from a more experienced perspective.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,652
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From: 50+ north
Talkdownman
If your unit is using "after departure. contact....", has this phraseology been risk assessed or commented on by your ATS Inspector? How do you know which frequency it is on after getting airborne should you need to pass essential traffic information (eg birds). Agree with the head up for crews to enable them to set the next RTF frequency, but suggest that "when instructed contact (unit callsign) (freq)" as part of the ATC clearance is by far the safer option.
If your unit is using "after departure. contact....", has this phraseology been risk assessed or commented on by your ATS Inspector? How do you know which frequency it is on after getting airborne should you need to pass essential traffic information (eg birds). Agree with the head up for crews to enable them to set the next RTF frequency, but suggest that "when instructed contact (unit callsign) (freq)" as part of the ATC clearance is by far the safer option.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 570
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From: Another Planet.
AVIATE, NAVIGATE, COMMUNICATE.
Monster, alas there's an awful lot of things to be done before we start to talk to yourselves in the initial climb.
Reconfiguring the aircraft for the high speed phase, switching engine bleeds, packs and anti-icing, all modified by whichever NADP is that airfields favourite, to name but a few.
We presumably have been cleared to perform a SID, which we normally do unless something major changes that plan. In the event of a radio failure we will continue as appropriate, fly the plan etc or maintain track/altitude etc until the dust settles.
A previous major UK operator for whom I worked recommended no talk til the aircraft was "clean" as flap overstress incidents had occurred when ATC "distracted" from the cleanup.
To my F/Os I compare it to asking CC into flight deck at that stage, they don't realise when not to speak with the obvious results.
I don't wish to appear rude but that's what's inhibiting immediate comms.
Doubtless others will have their thoughts on the topic......................................
Reconfiguring the aircraft for the high speed phase, switching engine bleeds, packs and anti-icing, all modified by whichever NADP is that airfields favourite, to name but a few.
We presumably have been cleared to perform a SID, which we normally do unless something major changes that plan. In the event of a radio failure we will continue as appropriate, fly the plan etc or maintain track/altitude etc until the dust settles.
A previous major UK operator for whom I worked recommended no talk til the aircraft was "clean" as flap overstress incidents had occurred when ATC "distracted" from the cleanup.
To my F/Os I compare it to asking CC into flight deck at that stage, they don't realise when not to speak with the obvious results.
I don't wish to appear rude but that's what's inhibiting immediate comms.
Doubtless others will have their thoughts on the topic......................................
Last edited by BARKINGMAD; 8th September 2013 at 21:08.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2013
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From: UK
Barkingmad-
Thanks for that, the sole reason I'm keen on transferring early is for the crew to obtain continuous climb, the departures at out airport stop climb at 5000'. I feel this new limit may inhibit climb on, obviously only some instances, when the TMA is a lot busier.
But, indeed, your workload is taken in to account. Essentially trying to find the right balance overall, without compromising your tasks.
Talkdownman-
There is quite a strong opposition at our airport to use that method. We have a heavy GA prescence, and the VFR/IFR integration wouldn't be as safe or efficient for us unfortunately.
Thanks for that, the sole reason I'm keen on transferring early is for the crew to obtain continuous climb, the departures at out airport stop climb at 5000'. I feel this new limit may inhibit climb on, obviously only some instances, when the TMA is a lot busier.
But, indeed, your workload is taken in to account. Essentially trying to find the right balance overall, without compromising your tasks.
Talkdownman-
There is quite a strong opposition at our airport to use that method. We have a heavy GA prescence, and the VFR/IFR integration wouldn't be as safe or efficient for us unfortunately.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: I wouldn't know.
Just an example from another country. Over here with very few exceptions the SIDs advise to stay on tower frequency until a certain altitude (1000ft/2000ft) and then contact the departure frequency without any further need to be advised to do so, some just state to contact departure after take-off so we flight crew can choose when to do it. Only the two busiest airports have the tower transfer departing aircraft to departure. Works quite well.
Even when told to switch at 2000ft with a 4000ft climb limit it is usually early enough to get a continuous climb. Only during very busy days with a lot of weather and traffic there can be a delay requiring us to actually level off. And of course if we forget to call in... Granted, there is no need to use IDENT over here, which saves some time.
Even when told to switch at 2000ft with a 4000ft climb limit it is usually early enough to get a continuous climb. Only during very busy days with a lot of weather and traffic there can be a delay requiring us to actually level off. And of course if we forget to call in... Granted, there is no need to use IDENT over here, which saves some time.
Joined: Jul 2004
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From: On the wireless...
Originally Posted by TCAS FAN
If your unit is using "after departure. contact....", has this phraseology been risk assessed or commented on by your ATS Inspector?
Joined: Mar 2013
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From: EU
I fly something slower and more simple than a jet. Possibly pretty close to you, Lough neagh monster!
I personally would be happy with "After departure turn left heading 185 and contact radar xxx.xx" althoughI can understand why this could become awkward with mixed traffic.
For myself, anything from wheels up to 1000' is fine, as is 2000'+ (again I am slower and don't need to worry so much about further climbs). 1000'-2000' is where we tend to run through post take off checks and making contact with radar can be a bit distracting. Sometimes there may be a bit of a delay between us being handed over and making contact whilst we complete checks.
I personally would be happy with "After departure turn left heading 185 and contact radar xxx.xx" althoughI can understand why this could become awkward with mixed traffic.
For myself, anything from wheels up to 1000' is fine, as is 2000'+ (again I am slower and don't need to worry so much about further climbs). 1000'-2000' is where we tend to run through post take off checks and making contact with radar can be a bit distracting. Sometimes there may be a bit of a delay between us being handed over and making contact whilst we complete checks.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Wor Yerm
Modern aircraft are simple to fly. SID monitoring, cleaning up, accelerating are trivial affairs. Therefore, I don't really care when I have to call in, just so long as it is above gear retraction and at least four thousand feet before the first climb restriction. I's also prefer an automatic frequency change. I want a continuous climb and no level-offs. A bit like it is in HAJ, BRE, AMS, TRD, TLS etc...
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