FO Take Off's
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: CH/F
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FO Take Off's
I was wondering how many companies are allowing a full FO Take off. Meaning advancing power levers, rotating and climb out.
Our procedure unfortunately is a hand over when the aircraft is clean.
Our procedure unfortunately is a hand over when the aircraft is clean.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only other company I know of that doesn't allow F/O's to do everything skip would do on his handling sector takeoff is Crossair/Swiss.
In our company, the only distinction between Skip an Effo during takeoff is that it remains the Captain's decision to abort, so once Effo sets takeoff thrust, the Captain will place his hand on the thrust levers until V1. Other than that there are no differences.
Some airlines even allow the F/O to decide whether or not to abort, and therefore he keeps his hand on the thrust levers until V1.
It worries me a bit that some outfits don't allow their Effo's to complete most of the landing and/or take off. Could be a bit of an obstacle when said Effo comes up for Command!
Flying Clog
bmi Regional, UK
In our company, the only distinction between Skip an Effo during takeoff is that it remains the Captain's decision to abort, so once Effo sets takeoff thrust, the Captain will place his hand on the thrust levers until V1. Other than that there are no differences.
Some airlines even allow the F/O to decide whether or not to abort, and therefore he keeps his hand on the thrust levers until V1.
It worries me a bit that some outfits don't allow their Effo's to complete most of the landing and/or take off. Could be a bit of an obstacle when said Effo comes up for Command!
Flying Clog
bmi Regional, UK
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Camp X-Ray
Posts: 2,135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My company (BA) allow the FO to do just about everything including rejecting a take off in a few specified situations. About the only thing they can't do is sign the paperwork and autolands.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Near Stalyvegas
Age: 78
Posts: 2,022
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Every "Fam flight" I have been on, the trip has been "shared".
i.e. One leg has been flown by the Captain, t'other by the FO. The "only" difference is that the FO doesn't have control of the nosewheel steering. AFAIK
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
i.e. One leg has been flown by the Captain, t'other by the FO. The "only" difference is that the FO doesn't have control of the nosewheel steering. AFAIK
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In our company it's SOP that the skip sets take-off thrust, even on an FO take off. The reason is that the abort-decision lies with the skip. Everything else is done by the fo, only on CAT II/III approaches the skip takes the plane at 1000ft RA. On the ground it's a bit different 'cause we don't have a tiller on the right hand side. Some captains do a complete role-reversal including taxiing, they help a bit in the sharp turns though.
INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same here in South East Asia with the airline I'm with. The F/O as PF for a whole sector will do the same duties as if the Captain was flying the sector, with the exception of when the thrust levers are advanced on T/O, we hand over control of the thrust levers to the Captain and ask him/her to set thrut and their hands are on the levers till V1 cause the Captain makes the abort decision. No other restrictions but of course a Captain can take over anytime. If you feel you want a bit more hand flying time, you can choose yourself when to engage or disengage the autopilot after takeoff and for the landings. Our SOP are mainly in line with Boeing procedures.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: EU
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would have to agree with Flying Clog!!! What happens when it's time for an F/O to upgrade to left seat?? In my company an F/O is more or less concidered a future captain on "line training" and shares pretty much all duties with the captain (except for some paper signing). The F/O is also allowed to initiate an abort, during the aborted T/O procedure the F/O then becomes PNF. I think this system workes excelent.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: 5 km from ESGG
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having written SOP:s for about 25 air carriers I have not come across the idea before of not letting the co-pilot do a take-off...
Every company I have worked with has taken for granted that the co-pilot does every other flight including take-off and landing. The only exceptions being CAT II/III.
Every company I have worked with has taken for granted that the co-pilot does every other flight including take-off and landing. The only exceptions being CAT II/III.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the company I fly for the flights are or flown by the Captain or by the F/O. The only time an F/O is not allowed by company rules to do an takeof is in low visibility (Vis < 400 meters) and the reason for that is that only the Captain has a nosewheel tiller.
Further is it the Captains decision to not let the F/O to do an take-off but he needs a very good reason then.
Further is it the Captains decision to not let the F/O to do an take-off but he needs a very good reason then.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: on this planet
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By the way VEJ it's not only a company procedure that the commander (JAR OPS phrase) must do the take off with RVR below 400m it' s required by JAR OPS as it is a LVTO.
For all carriers I worked for the FO was allowed to fly each other sector only LVTO and CAT II/III approaches must have been flown by the commander. Even in some companies FO's may taxi the aircraft, what is actually possible on Airbus. If you check the Airbus SOP's they make a difference between PF and PNF, so the PF does everything including engine start, taxi out, take off, landing, taxi in and shut down the engines.
For all carriers I worked for the FO was allowed to fly each other sector only LVTO and CAT II/III approaches must have been flown by the commander. Even in some companies FO's may taxi the aircraft, what is actually possible on Airbus. If you check the Airbus SOP's they make a difference between PF and PNF, so the PF does everything including engine start, taxi out, take off, landing, taxi in and shut down the engines.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Not sure about that. We operate to JAROPS and the F.O. can do the take-off in vis down to 125 metres. Train them to the same standards as the captains, then treat them as captains under training - it's the safest way to go.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Copilots do takeoffs, but Capt advances throttles and keeps his hand on them until Vee One, when he removes his hand from the throttle quadrant. The decision to abort is always the Captain's, according to our company's policy. After Vee One it's always a go and for safety reasons, no hands on the throttles.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Embedded in a pocket of resistance
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's also illegal according JAR not to let the F/O do the take off, but unfortunately regulations always been the last concern of Crossair 
Where is it written that it is illegal to NOT let an FO perform a take off ?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IF the First Officer is NOT allowed a takeoff, how are they going to learn?
I would prefer to sit back and have my tea (with lemon and sugar, thanks) and let 'em do nearly everything except sign the loadsheet and logbook.
Them's are the benefits of being the Commander.
I would prefer to sit back and have my tea (with lemon and sugar, thanks) and let 'em do nearly everything except sign the loadsheet and logbook.
Them's are the benefits of being the Commander.
I never thought 411 would post anything I could agree with, but this time I do. Nothing like a baby captain landing in a crosswind at the max demonstrated X wind for the first time because he was never allowed to do do as a FO under supervision.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: MiddleEast
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Company I am with gives the F/O the whole show from pre-start to shut down. The only slight exception is that the F/O can only abort the take-off on the Captains command. In other words when they are conducting a PF sector they do the lot.Oh almost forgot, Captains must do the Cat 11/111 landings also.
Personally, due to my past I am not completely in aggreement with the policy but they put the money in my bank account every month so I guess they can say how we play with their toys.
Have a nice day
Personally, due to my past I am not completely in aggreement with the policy but they put the money in my bank account every month so I guess they can say how we play with their toys.
Have a nice day
Dutch Roller
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: World
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FO LVTO
What part of JAR-OPS states that only the captain may perform take-offs in LVP? Because my company allows me to take-off down to 125 RVR as a FO. We were the first company in Europe to be JAR-OPS certified so it would surprise me if we were bending the rules on this point.
As FO's we do exactly the same as the capt including engine start, taxiing and RTO. No CAT III though. Also no x-wind or other limitations and no airport restrictions.
As FO's we do exactly the same as the capt including engine start, taxiing and RTO. No CAT III though. Also no x-wind or other limitations and no airport restrictions.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All good stuff and a world away from the old days when the Cap might just occasionally "grant" a co-pilot a t/o or landing.
Having said that the Skip should still be the one to ask the "Which way do you want to fly it?" question .In my years in the RHS I never presumed to ask this question and it slightly annoys me now when the F/O asks me.Although it is normal practice to fly leg about it is still a concession granted by the Skipper even if it does usually go without saying. No I'm not some old dinosaur and am always happy to fly "leg about" but if the F/O screws it up it's still me who is in the poo.(I by default was negligent in not recovering the situation or by allowing the f/o to fly outside his limits )
Having said that the Skip should still be the one to ask the "Which way do you want to fly it?" question .In my years in the RHS I never presumed to ask this question and it slightly annoys me now when the F/O asks me.Although it is normal practice to fly leg about it is still a concession granted by the Skipper even if it does usually go without saying. No I'm not some old dinosaur and am always happy to fly "leg about" but if the F/O screws it up it's still me who is in the poo.(I by default was negligent in not recovering the situation or by allowing the f/o to fly outside his limits )
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know it sounds like bad CRM, possibly is, but when I was sitting in briefing once a bright young F/O asked his captain just that question, "which way do you want to fly it", the unexpected answer was, "Both!" The captain in question was one of the nicest men you could wish to meet and normally gave away more than he flew but, as he said afterwards, it was a question of attitude.