Nothing wrong with a little power nap - is there?
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Controlled rest
It may have worked for you but it isn't legal so why encourage pilots to do something illegal?
yall have a nice Halloween or as you islanders call it samhain.
Last edited by CancelIFR; 30th Oct 2012 at 02:45.
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Wow...still some Old School thinking still out there! Controlled rest has been proven to help with the long duty period nap time relief. The way some crews are rostered is almost criminal but we still hear "Hey, it's legal..." (been hearing that from safety officers for years!) I only had one FO doze off during a controlled rest (mine) years ago. He was a handful then and still is! Anyway the controlled rest works and we use it to our advantage when it's needed.
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Napping is absolutely needed in today's 11:45 night duty limit, seven days in a row.
Controlled rest has been proven to help with the long duty period nap time relief. The way some crews are rostered is almost criminal ..
Far far better this is made universally legal, that we are real about the pressures of sitting on the flight deck for up to a day with scarcely any body movements going on and draw-up safe methods of taking "power naps" or short rests during operations.
For me the only requirement is that one crew member remains alert always. How to ensure this I don't know but both crew members napping is certainly not ideal (at all).
Crew covering for each other while the nap, yes. We need to be realistic about what goes on - humans are not machines!
If rests during the cruise will refresh our captains and FO's then they are (in my view) of benefit and should be welcomed and accommodated in legislation. The only condition, as I say, is that crew members must take this in turns.
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On ships there is a "deadman alarm", it will sound a loud alarm on the bridge if not pressed/reset after a preset period of say 15min. If the bridge alarm doesn't wake the watch keeper up, a further alarm sounds in the Captains cabin. If that isn't cancelled the ships General (emergency) Alarm sounds.
Could this be adapted for aircraft, if the loud alarm doesn't wake up the flight crew, another sounds in the rest area, or some how alerts the CC?
Could this be adapted for aircraft, if the loud alarm doesn't wake up the flight crew, another sounds in the rest area, or some how alerts the CC?
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Wow...still some Old School thinking still out there! Controlled rest has been proven to help with the long duty period nap time relief. The way some crews are rostered is almost criminal but we still hear "Hey, it's legal..." (been hearing that from safety officers for years!) I only had one FO doze off during a controlled rest (mine) years ago. He was a handful then and still is! Anyway the controlled rest works and we use it to our advantage when it's needed.
Mistrust in Management
Before controlled rest was legal in European parts
We used to do it anyway on a three man crew.
Twice for me back from the East Coast to LHR the Capt has said it was my turn for a nap. (I was an F/E on the 747 classsic)
I duly had my nap and awoke to find the other two fellows snoring away. I did the next shanwick call and woke them both some time later.
Wrong it may be, but up to 5 'there and backs' every 28 days I found very punishing - plus bear in mind that at the overlap of the 28 days you could (and I did at times) a 'back to back' atlantic.
All within 'the rules' - but the rules do not seem to take proper account of human needs in my opinion.
Now I generally fly in daylight hours (its almost an emergency when the sun goes down). I do fly up to six sectors a day (not often six, more often four) and it is tiring - but tiring is not the same as complete and utter exhaustion through sleep deprivation.
Sleep deprivation is the 'killer'. If you do 5 atlantics in 28 days then you generally completely go without 5 nights sleep a month (apparently 'catchup sleep' does not properly replace real scheduled sleep) - OK for a month - but not OK for year apon year.
FTL's have never been sensibly looked at in my opinion and the new EASA rules seem bizarre. The pax just look at the ticket cost so we are all in a race to the bottom financially and with levels of safety. Hey Ho.
Twice for me back from the East Coast to LHR the Capt has said it was my turn for a nap. (I was an F/E on the 747 classsic)
I duly had my nap and awoke to find the other two fellows snoring away. I did the next shanwick call and woke them both some time later.
Wrong it may be, but up to 5 'there and backs' every 28 days I found very punishing - plus bear in mind that at the overlap of the 28 days you could (and I did at times) a 'back to back' atlantic.
All within 'the rules' - but the rules do not seem to take proper account of human needs in my opinion.
Now I generally fly in daylight hours (its almost an emergency when the sun goes down). I do fly up to six sectors a day (not often six, more often four) and it is tiring - but tiring is not the same as complete and utter exhaustion through sleep deprivation.
Sleep deprivation is the 'killer'. If you do 5 atlantics in 28 days then you generally completely go without 5 nights sleep a month (apparently 'catchup sleep' does not properly replace real scheduled sleep) - OK for a month - but not OK for year apon year.
FTL's have never been sensibly looked at in my opinion and the new EASA rules seem bizarre. The pax just look at the ticket cost so we are all in a race to the bottom financially and with levels of safety. Hey Ho.
The FAA did a lot of studies and concluded that controlled rest made for a safer operation. They never allowed it because it looked less safe to the flying public to allow one pilot to be asleep. It is better to look safe than actually be safe.
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My M.E. airline luckily allows 'controlled rest' and I use it a lot. Sometimes a guy is so tired just after airborne and ask if he can sleep almost the whole sector. (<2hrs) Fine with me as long as I feel great and the c/c is informed and does their regular checkups. Weird as it may be, but whenever the other guy does a power nap my tiredness completely disappears. I think its because subconciously you become hyper aware of the risk and concequences of you falling asleep as well. Chilling thought...!
We usually take turns and decide quit early on who sleeps on which sector. I never sleep more then 30 min. I do set my alarm and use the aircrafts clock timer to check how long I've actually been asleep and so far I have not slept upto the alarm going off. After that it's time for a coffee, newspaper and I am awake for the descent. (Flts <7hrs)
We usually take turns and decide quit early on who sleeps on which sector. I never sleep more then 30 min. I do set my alarm and use the aircrafts clock timer to check how long I've actually been asleep and so far I have not slept upto the alarm going off. After that it's time for a coffee, newspaper and I am awake for the descent. (Flts <7hrs)
Last edited by John21UK; 9th Nov 2012 at 08:58.
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On ships there is a "deadman alarm"...
preset period of say 15min.
wake the watch keeper up, a further alarm sounds in the Captains cabin. If that isn't cancelled the ships General (emergency) Alarm sounds.
Could this be adapted for aircraft, if the loud alarm doesn't wake up the flight crew, another sounds in the rest area, or some how alerts the CC?
preset period of say 15min.
wake the watch keeper up, a further alarm sounds in the Captains cabin. If that isn't cancelled the ships General (emergency) Alarm sounds.
Could this be adapted for aircraft, if the loud alarm doesn't wake up the flight crew, another sounds in the rest area, or some how alerts the CC?
A power nap, used when needed, and discussed and briefed, will cause no issues. Having to do this all the time, every trip, is a completely different thing.
Having had the benefit of flying with a captain on a nasty night PFO, who was all but asleep during the latter stages of an arrival (eyes wide open, but very, very slow to recognise radio calls, colleague calls, etc) when he really needed to be much more alert- He'd dilligently applied the company message about absolutely no sleeping during work hours, but was on the ragged edge due to 'legal' but not so wise rostering practices, that took best (commercial) advantage of the unacclimatised FDP.
Sadly, the company message was written for ground staff before there was a flying staff, while the other contradictory company message about controlled rest in flight to mitigate effects of certain roster combinations, was not so well known, publicised or utilised.
And we do have an alarm-
Work out what you are doing with a brief. Do it. Be woken up in say 15 minutes, by your mentally prepared and adjusted colleague. It would be nice if that including some fresh ground coffee and a nice massage, but I think cabin services don't include these skills.
In several companies now, the cabin crew duty includes pilot incap checks over the inter phone, at fixed periods.
I'm sure we've all seen combinations of this-
awake, but not alert.
Legally rested, but tired.
Take a day off due to accumulated effects of tiredness (heaven forbid we allude to fatigue), to be invited for an interview.
Better to recognise that it is an ever present problem (and not a new one) than to steadfastly ignore it and hope for the best. And certainly better than fitting numerous additional klaxons, sirens, horns, timers, flashing lights, and other devices to suddenly induce extra stress.
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@merch, there is something like that on a few longrange boeings. If nothing is done for a certain time (i think the first step is 30 minutes) there will be at first an EICAS message, if nothing is done after an additional time there will be a warning tone and the last step is if i remember correctly the autopilot disconnect wailer.
