A/C landing in CAT I with 200 m RVR
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A/C landing in CAT I with 200 m RVR
On 2nd of September, I was unable to take-off from my base in Poland, due to low RVR (down to 50 m). We were taxiing back to stand, waiting for better conditions, when I heard "... clear to land". I immediately called the tower to check latest visibility (our airport is CAT I): "RVR 200/200/unkwn).
The guys landed and never answered the tower, who asked them to mention which taxiway they would use to taxi to stand (probably unable to read any panel !). The Captain later on said that visi was 600 m to the ground agent, who reported this to me (pure lie, of course, as it was 200 m only).
I am planning to visit Turkey in the coming months, but I would be scared flying with such guys. I tried to contact the airline twice, but no answer (they must consider this as a minor problem).
Do any of you have comments about Pegasus safety policy ?
Thanks.
The guys landed and never answered the tower, who asked them to mention which taxiway they would use to taxi to stand (probably unable to read any panel !). The Captain later on said that visi was 600 m to the ground agent, who reported this to me (pure lie, of course, as it was 200 m only).
I am planning to visit Turkey in the coming months, but I would be scared flying with such guys. I tried to contact the airline twice, but no answer (they must consider this as a minor problem).
Do any of you have comments about Pegasus safety policy ?
Thanks.
Don't forget though, that if they had the required RVR to make the approach and then it fell below the minima after the FAF or 1000aal then they would be quite entitled to continue and have a look at the minima. If they have the require visibility at minima they can land regardless of the reported RVR.
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Agreed, but it would have to have been a VERY rapid deterioration to go from 550m @ 1000AGL to 200m when the landing clearance was issued (assumedly not too long afterwards as landing clearances can normally be issued earlier anyhow in LVP's due increased separation.)
Don't waste your time waiting for an answer from the Turks. . . . . as there was no accident "it never happened" & their head will be buried ostrich- like.
Only lesson here is choose carefully who you book for your vacation flight, wish I could say I am surprised but . . . . . . . . .
Don't waste your time waiting for an answer from the Turks. . . . . as there was no accident "it never happened" & their head will be buried ostrich- like.
Only lesson here is choose carefully who you book for your vacation flight, wish I could say I am surprised but . . . . . . . . .
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I tried to contact the airline twice, but no answer (they must consider this as a minor problem).
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I am also a passenger, so how far should I wait before doing anything, when such things happen ? "My own business", yes, of course, it can be a philosophy. How do you call a guy (sorry, a crew) who lands in these conditions, as long as thy succeed ? Answer: pilots (or bad pilots if you like). Now, how would you call them if they fail: criminals. The difference between you and me is that YOU just wait that it happens, I try to act on things so that they don't happen. And I am very sorry if this can bother two guys, who made their choice without asking their passenger opinions. Let me remind you that this happened in Poland. I am sure that "Smolensk" means something to them and that, if they were asked, these passengers would have considered that this could be my business !
To answer other points: I spent 15 minutes on the runway, we taxied to both ends of it, expecting an improvement and I never left the frequency before they land. The best we had was 200 meters, the least was 50. Of course, from the sky, it may have looked good. But from the ground, I can tell you that, even for taxi, we had to be carefull.
Captain's behavior is already one thing, but I also wondered how they work, as a crew...
To answer other points: I spent 15 minutes on the runway, we taxied to both ends of it, expecting an improvement and I never left the frequency before they land. The best we had was 200 meters, the least was 50. Of course, from the sky, it may have looked good. But from the ground, I can tell you that, even for taxi, we had to be carefull.
Captain's behavior is already one thing, but I also wondered how they work, as a crew...
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Excuse me for a perhaps somewhat daff SLF question - in the event of low lying layered fog wouldn't you have exactly the effect that at ground level the visibility is quite poor whilst at even a quite small altitude you would have considerably better visibility?
Also - if this raises such concern are there not formal channels to bring this to the attention of the relative authority in Poland? I think you need to go to this page http://www.transport.gov.pl/2-48230038f3e66.htm download the 5th excel document and then email it to the mentioned email address.
Also - if this raises such concern are there not formal channels to bring this to the attention of the relative authority in Poland? I think you need to go to this page http://www.transport.gov.pl/2-48230038f3e66.htm download the 5th excel document and then email it to the mentioned email address.
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Other than the visibility do you know any other fact about this?
Do you know what the weather was prior to the FAF?
Do you know the fuel status?
Do you know the alternate airport(s) wx?
Do you know the health of the crew and pax?
Do you know the condition of the aircraft?
Do you know the flight visibility when the broke out?
Do you know when they got the lights in sight?
Do you know if it was a revenue leg (not sure if that matters in Europe, it does in the US)?
Do you know what the weather was prior to the FAF?
Do you know the fuel status?
Do you know the alternate airport(s) wx?
Do you know the health of the crew and pax?
Do you know the condition of the aircraft?
Do you know the flight visibility when the broke out?
Do you know when they got the lights in sight?
Do you know if it was a revenue leg (not sure if that matters in Europe, it does in the US)?
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Paulsalem, I could answer YES to almost every point. Regarding the fuel, they did not declare an emergency. Let me remind you that the Captain said that Visi was 600, which is absolutely wrong. The lights in sight or anything else does not allow them to continue the approach below 1000 AGL if RVR<550m, which was the case. And I am not talking about 500 meters, but 200 !!!!!
The fact that you raised these points shows that, in your opinion, you could disregard rules in case you estimate you have good reasons to do so. I would agree, in case of a real emergency. But here, it was not the case: they parked just beside my plane and I discussed with the ground staff afterward. Smolensk crew also had good reasons: they had polish president on board ! It does not change the result...
GolfSierra, you are right: we were exactly in a situation of thin fog patches (or layer): from the sky, you can see the ground. From the ground, you can't see anything. I had to work on an event where the Cpt elected to continue eventhough he lost briefly the sight of the ground. At touchdown, he has mistaken the side lights for the center lights and corrected accordingly: he deviated to the side of the RWY, left the RWY, cut the taxiway (that was empty, by chance) before coming back to the runway. The presence of an A/C on this RWY would have caused an other Tenerife.
I will check the link, thank you.
The fact that you raised these points shows that, in your opinion, you could disregard rules in case you estimate you have good reasons to do so. I would agree, in case of a real emergency. But here, it was not the case: they parked just beside my plane and I discussed with the ground staff afterward. Smolensk crew also had good reasons: they had polish president on board ! It does not change the result...
GolfSierra, you are right: we were exactly in a situation of thin fog patches (or layer): from the sky, you can see the ground. From the ground, you can't see anything. I had to work on an event where the Cpt elected to continue eventhough he lost briefly the sight of the ground. At touchdown, he has mistaken the side lights for the center lights and corrected accordingly: he deviated to the side of the RWY, left the RWY, cut the taxiway (that was empty, by chance) before coming back to the runway. The presence of an A/C on this RWY would have caused an other Tenerife.
I will check the link, thank you.
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Paulsalem, you wrote FAF... hope you are joking ! Of course, it was an ILS, it's already bad enough !!!
Last edited by paulsalem; 3rd Oct 2012 at 14:44.
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Do you know what the weather was prior to the FAF?
Do you know the fuel status?
Do you know the alternate airport(s) wx?
Do you know the health of the crew and pax?
Do you know the condition of the aircraft?
Do you know the flight visibility when the broke out?
Do you know when they got the lights in sight
Do you know if it was a revenue leg (not sure if that matters in Europe, it does in the US)?
The tower should not have cleared them to land...thats another story...
Last edited by de facto; 3rd Oct 2012 at 15:03.
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None of the questions answered by you contain any hard proof it's all hearsay, insinuation, or answers to questions not asked.
I've flown 121 and 91. Since you've taken this from a polite debate to personal insults I'm done with the conversation. Not sure what the reasoning for your turning to a personal attacks was.
Revenue or not,you need to follow the regs,THAT makes me think you may be an under trained Part 91 biz pilot.
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So do you really think one would get any visual reference in 200 rvr at a DA of 200ft?
Why do you think some pilots care about this and are told by you to mind their own business?
I have flown in poland and i have witnessed Eurolot taking off when rvr was 200 m also..
Would you do such thing in your biz jet?go below minima?
Google approach ban while you are at it...
Nothing personal ,just trying to understand the experience of someone who may accept such actions..
Why do you think some pilots care about this and are told by you to mind their own business?
I have flown in poland and i have witnessed Eurolot taking off when rvr was 200 m also..
Would you do such thing in your biz jet?go below minima?
Google approach ban while you are at it...
Nothing personal ,just trying to understand the experience of someone who may accept such actions..
Last edited by de facto; 3rd Oct 2012 at 15:22.
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So do you really think one would get any visual reference in 200 rvr at a DA of 200ft?
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Edinburgh's RVRometer is down a slight incline, in grass, to the side of the runway. It was in fog and showing 300m RVR whilst we could clearly see the whole runway from 15 miles away.
In Poland,i was told it is up to the pilot to decide when it comes to vis minima as they dont know all crew limitations!They should know pilots minima are limited by the airport minima at least.In that case cat1.
Undertrained ATC,poor pilot judgement ,the third problem is just waiting to happen and uve got an accident,with passengers dying while they here minding their own business.
If ground crew tell u the airport is fogged in like it was the case in the above example,and some land by risking their pax lives,it drives me nuts hence the i itial harsh reaction.
Ive heard too many of those examples,including a fact in my previous airline.
Last edited by de facto; 4th Oct 2012 at 02:05.