Forward yoke during flare to 'grease' !
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
glueball - it looks to me from that video that the a/c was on the ground when the PIO began, and it does not appear to be caused by any 'de-rotation' while airborne. Do you have different information?
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: fort sheridan, il
this concept is well addressed in the fine book, "fly the Wing" by WEBB.
There are many things making for a grease job...indeed you can even do a grease off on takeoff.
the MD82 driver is right...side loading, drift , crab etc are all a big part of a smooth landing.
One must consider the plane involved...but also consider the runway.
Are you sloping downhill? or uphill? are there any visual illusions?
is the ''crown'' of the runway fooling your flare height?
There are many things making for a grease job...indeed you can even do a grease off on takeoff.
the MD82 driver is right...side loading, drift , crab etc are all a big part of a smooth landing.
One must consider the plane involved...but also consider the runway.
Are you sloping downhill? or uphill? are there any visual illusions?
is the ''crown'' of the runway fooling your flare height?
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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Likes: 235
From: by the seaside
Saw it demonstrated on the Trident and eventually tried it- made some fantastic landings as the Oleo movement was measured in inches which normally meant a firm landing.
A few years later I used it all of the time on the DC 9 - 32/33F/34/51 all had different characteristics but again worked a treat. Only downside was that when the ground spoilers came out it dumped the aircraft. A few guys would have a spare hand on the lever to slow their deployment.
Never got it wrong but was asked by a young captain to stop as the late flare scared him.
The trick on the nine was to close the throttles early, trim back as you could run out of elevator especially on the 51, late heave and at the requisite moment stuff the stick forward and not forget to break the nosewheel landing (forgot that once!)...
Sadly rarely experience a decent landing as SLF nowadays.
It's about training, ability and had flying frequency so you can forget it nowadays.....
A few years later I used it all of the time on the DC 9 - 32/33F/34/51 all had different characteristics but again worked a treat. Only downside was that when the ground spoilers came out it dumped the aircraft. A few guys would have a spare hand on the lever to slow their deployment.
Never got it wrong but was asked by a young captain to stop as the late flare scared him.
The trick on the nine was to close the throttles early, trim back as you could run out of elevator especially on the 51, late heave and at the requisite moment stuff the stick forward and not forget to break the nosewheel landing (forgot that once!)...
Sadly rarely experience a decent landing as SLF nowadays.
It's about training, ability and had flying frequency so you can forget it nowadays.....
Joined: Sep 2010
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 886
Likes: 235
From: by the seaside
Glueball what your video post showed was what not to do on a bounced landing.
Did that on my first solo as I didn't know better nor did my instructors.
Got the masks out after a similar faux pas on the Trident - again ignorance - which was demonstrated by one of my base trainers who did same feat and buckled a Trident one.....
Nowt to do with the greaser technique..
As to LCY and the 146 - very impressive and guess you must drive for cityjet sir.
Did that on my first solo as I didn't know better nor did my instructors.
Got the masks out after a similar faux pas on the Trident - again ignorance - which was demonstrated by one of my base trainers who did same feat and buckled a Trident one.....
Nowt to do with the greaser technique..
As to LCY and the 146 - very impressive and guess you must drive for cityjet sir.
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: UK
Ab, it may appear to work on the 146, but please don’t do it.
The 146 differs from many aircraft in that the body angle on the approach is about the same as the flight path (at Vref ish). Thus after flaring the nose wheel is not very high above the ground, and any initial forward stick may only settle the main gear – lift reduction; further forward stick could extend the main gear and upset the squat switch logic resulting in delayed or no spoilers.
Search the AAIB records for at least two incidents involving forward stick resulting in a close inspection of the end of the runway. Now at LCY (or any airport), which would you prefer, a soft touchdown or an overrun. Even the so called ‘hard’ landings are soft in the cabin due to the excellent landing gear.
For anyone who flew 146 002 – it didn’t fly straight; this was due to a previous hard nose wheel landing – forward stick at touchdown, which creased the fuselage over the flight deck.
Read the manufacturer’s ops manual re stick position after landing.
The 146 differs from many aircraft in that the body angle on the approach is about the same as the flight path (at Vref ish). Thus after flaring the nose wheel is not very high above the ground, and any initial forward stick may only settle the main gear – lift reduction; further forward stick could extend the main gear and upset the squat switch logic resulting in delayed or no spoilers.
Search the AAIB records for at least two incidents involving forward stick resulting in a close inspection of the end of the runway. Now at LCY (or any airport), which would you prefer, a soft touchdown or an overrun. Even the so called ‘hard’ landings are soft in the cabin due to the excellent landing gear.
For anyone who flew 146 002 – it didn’t fly straight; this was due to a previous hard nose wheel landing – forward stick at touchdown, which creased the fuselage over the flight deck.
Read the manufacturer’s ops manual re stick position after landing.
Last edited by safetypee; 5th August 2012 at 17:05.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: fort sheridan, il
the 146 doesn't need anything for a smooth touchdown...the gear does it all
one time I landed it so smooth, (how smooth was it), that I didnt' know we were on the ground until the ground shift/WOW allowed me to pull the throttles farther back.
one time I landed it so smooth, (how smooth was it), that I didnt' know we were on the ground until the ground shift/WOW allowed me to pull the throttles farther back.
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: nowhere
What does pulling the throttle farther back on the ground do? Reduce idle rpm.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: fort sheridan, il
hi jammedstab:
the 146 has a flight idle and ground idle engine RPM...ground idle being lower...the method the designers used to protect you from going to ground idle inflight is a little sort of metal bar/stop...this stop is moved upon WOW (weight on wheels) allowing you to pull throttles farther back after touchdown.
so, I had pulled the throttles aft for landing...and suddenly I could pull them back farther...the WOW switch had activated allowing me to pull into ground idle...and because the landing was so smooth...it was how I knew we were on the ground.
the 146 has body mounted trailing link gear which is a huge help in smooth touchdowns.
the 146 has a flight idle and ground idle engine RPM...ground idle being lower...the method the designers used to protect you from going to ground idle inflight is a little sort of metal bar/stop...this stop is moved upon WOW (weight on wheels) allowing you to pull throttles farther back after touchdown.
so, I had pulled the throttles aft for landing...and suddenly I could pull them back farther...the WOW switch had activated allowing me to pull into ground idle...and because the landing was so smooth...it was how I knew we were on the ground.
the 146 has body mounted trailing link gear which is a huge help in smooth touchdowns.
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Australia
I do it on the 320 when I have cut the power to early. But the caveat is it is not a forward pressure but a relaxation of the back pressure. It also worked on the SAAB 340. Then again my greasers (which are easy on the 320) could just be my command of the Force when I hear Yoda talking me through the landing.
