Use of Standard Passenger weights
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 3
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From: Australia
Use of Standard Passenger weights
hi everyone,
i was digging through the law books (CAO, CAR etc) a couple weeks ago and noticed something about the use of standard passenger weights. I have no idea where i saw it, but i remember it saying that small aircraft are not to use standard weights and must use the exact weights of passengers ect.
i was trying to find it again today.... no luck although i did find CAAP 235-1 which more or less says what i was looking for. Problem is this is the first time i have ever seen this document before......
so my question is, where did i read this before if it wasn't the CAAP? or am i just imagining things.
i was digging through the law books (CAO, CAR etc) a couple weeks ago and noticed something about the use of standard passenger weights. I have no idea where i saw it, but i remember it saying that small aircraft are not to use standard weights and must use the exact weights of passengers ect.
i was trying to find it again today.... no luck although i did find CAAP 235-1 which more or less says what i was looking for. Problem is this is the first time i have ever seen this document before......
so my question is, where did i read this before if it wasn't the CAAP? or am i just imagining things.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Earth
Not sure why you're expecting a legal reference to common sense.
On a large jet, the pax weights will average out so it doesn't matter if you've got a few obese people onboard. Jets are also somewhat less performance constrained.
On a light aircraft, W&B and performance limitations are somewhat tighter and so if you're planning to operate close to the envelope then it's in your best interests to use actual weights. As numerous avoidable accidents have demonstrated otherwise.
Previous discussions on the matter on PPRuNe have pointed to AC119-4 as being one of the more detailed documents on the matter.
On a large jet, the pax weights will average out so it doesn't matter if you've got a few obese people onboard. Jets are also somewhat less performance constrained.
On a light aircraft, W&B and performance limitations are somewhat tighter and so if you're planning to operate close to the envelope then it's in your best interests to use actual weights. As numerous avoidable accidents have demonstrated otherwise.
Previous discussions on the matter on PPRuNe have pointed to AC119-4 as being one of the more detailed documents on the matter.
Joined: Jan 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,409
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From: Between a rock and a hard place
EU-OPS Subpart J contains the standard weights for European air carriers. As there are few absolutes in this industry, I am sure you can find variations to EU-OPS as well.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: All at sea
CAAP 235-1 probably means that the legal reference to which it relates is CAR 235.
An operator using standard weights may be required to do an average passenger weight review every couple of years. People are getting heavier.
I remember being required to do this for a B737 operation. The only way to get the ladies on to the scales was to tell them to step aboard with their hand baggage (which they could then blame for the high readings). Including carry-on baggage was of course quite relevant to the standard weight allowance, and the results were quite surprising. The average adult female with her carry-on bags came to about 91 kg and the blokes with their clobber were only about 4 kg more.
An operator using standard weights may be required to do an average passenger weight review every couple of years. People are getting heavier.
I remember being required to do this for a B737 operation. The only way to get the ladies on to the scales was to tell them to step aboard with their hand baggage (which they could then blame for the high readings). Including carry-on baggage was of course quite relevant to the standard weight allowance, and the results were quite surprising. The average adult female with her carry-on bags came to about 91 kg and the blokes with their clobber were only about 4 kg more.
Fleet Manager
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,441
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From: various places .....
The CAAP data and the recommendations come from a study done by one of CASA's airworthiness engineers (JK) quite some years ago.
The study was based on Australian medical anthropometric data. The basic concern with aircraft size is the effect of population standard deviations. On the smaller aircraft (as I recall, the cutoff adopted was 8 seats ?) the variability makes the use of standard weights a bit unworkable.
John's study probably is still available from CASA .. my copy is tucked away safely in the files.
If you are in the Canberra area, John is semi-retired and probably would be quite happy to take you through the background for the price of several coffees ..
The study was based on Australian medical anthropometric data. The basic concern with aircraft size is the effect of population standard deviations. On the smaller aircraft (as I recall, the cutoff adopted was 8 seats ?) the variability makes the use of standard weights a bit unworkable.
John's study probably is still available from CASA .. my copy is tucked away safely in the files.
If you are in the Canberra area, John is semi-retired and probably would be quite happy to take you through the background for the price of several coffees ..
