FAA logging in multicrew environment
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FAA logging in multicrew environment
Hello all,
I've brought this topic over from Rotorheads in the hope of getting some feedback from FAA pilots who operate in the fixed-wing multicrew environment:
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I've been reading the FARs in response to questions from company co-pilots regarding the logging of flight time.
Company co-pilots are not cleared to act as PIC, but they are permitted to manipulate the controls at the discretion of the PIC.
Have the FAA rules recently changed to bring them into line with the PICUS or P1/US concept?
Part 1.1 states:
So under this definition, co-pilots can not be PIC. They do not have the final authority and responsibility, and they are never designated PIC.
However, does Part 61.51 allow co-pilots to log PIC time when they perform the duties of PIC under supervision? If so, it would appear to not be as simple as merely being the 'pilot flying' rather than 'pilot not flying' (a very different concept in my opinion)... it appears that there are 2 crucial provisos: they must be undergoing an approved PIC training scheme with each entry signed by the actual PIC in the logbook (as per JAA-land). Or is this section aimed at PPL/CPL/IR training rather than P1/US training schemes?
Have I interpreted this correctly? It would appear that the supervising pilot in command must also have a FI certificate...?
Or is the relevant section actually:
In which case, can a co-pilot act as PIC? Not according to the above definition. I also note that the definition of PIC mentions nothing about being the manipulator of the controls.
Does anybody know what the airlines operating under FAA do?
On 2 separate but related points:
Which operations under FAA require an ATP?
What are people's thoughts on the logging of flight time when moving between systems:
1. Flight time should be logged as per the rules of the licence they were using during that particular flight; or
2. Logbooks can be retrospectively adjusted to reflect the rules of any particular system as required.
I've brought this topic over from Rotorheads in the hope of getting some feedback from FAA pilots who operate in the fixed-wing multicrew environment:
----------------------
I've been reading the FARs in response to questions from company co-pilots regarding the logging of flight time.
Company co-pilots are not cleared to act as PIC, but they are permitted to manipulate the controls at the discretion of the PIC.
Have the FAA rules recently changed to bring them into line with the PICUS or P1/US concept?
Part 1.1 states:
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
However, does Part 61.51 allow co-pilots to log PIC time when they perform the duties of PIC under supervision? If so, it would appear to not be as simple as merely being the 'pilot flying' rather than 'pilot not flying' (a very different concept in my opinion)... it appears that there are 2 crucial provisos: they must be undergoing an approved PIC training scheme with each entry signed by the actual PIC in the logbook (as per JAA-land). Or is this section aimed at PPL/CPL/IR training rather than P1/US training schemes?
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
( 1 ) Preflight preparation;
( 2 ) Preflight procedures;
( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;
( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;
( 5 ) Instrument procedures;
( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;
( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;
( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and
( 9 ) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
( 1 ) Preflight preparation;
( 2 ) Preflight procedures;
( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;
( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;
( 5 ) Instrument procedures;
( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;
( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;
( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and
( 9 ) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
Or is the relevant section actually:
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;
Does anybody know what the airlines operating under FAA do?
On 2 separate but related points:
(2) If rated to act as pilot in command of the aircraft, an airline transport pilot may log all flight time while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.
What are people's thoughts on the logging of flight time when moving between systems:
1. Flight time should be logged as per the rules of the licence they were using during that particular flight; or
2. Logbooks can be retrospectively adjusted to reflect the rules of any particular system as required.
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There is an endless debate over what time you CAN legally log as PIC, and what any given company might ACCEPT as valid PIC time. Most airlines want ONLY that time where you were in fact a designated PIC (solo or rated and designated PIC by airline/operator). They do NOT want the time you might have sit in the seat and operated the autopilot or stick & throttle while you were the SIC or non-required auxiliary pilot.
Log what you want, within the limits of the regulations.
Keep enough information so you can distill all the intricacies that any airline might want if you apply for a job.
Do NOT alter your logbook to suit somebody else! Use their form or some other vehicle to describe flight time as they might want, but which might not be in line with your regulatory log requirements.
Log what you want, within the limits of the regulations.
Keep enough information so you can distill all the intricacies that any airline might want if you apply for a job.
Do NOT alter your logbook to suit somebody else! Use their form or some other vehicle to describe flight time as they might want, but which might not be in line with your regulatory log requirements.
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There is an endless debate over what time you CAN legally log as PIC, and what any given company might ACCEPT as valid PIC time. Most airlines want ONLY that time where you were in fact a designated PIC (solo or rated and designated PIC by airline/operator). They do NOT want the time you might have sit in the seat and operated the autopilot or stick & throttle while you were the SIC or non-required auxiliary pilot.
Log what you want, within the limits of the regulations.
Keep enough information so you can distill all the intricacies that any airline might want if you apply for a job.
Do NOT alter your logbook to suit somebody else! Use their form or some other vehicle to describe flight time as they might want, but which might not be in line with your regulatory log requirements.
Log what you want, within the limits of the regulations.
Keep enough information so you can distill all the intricacies that any airline might want if you apply for a job.
Do NOT alter your logbook to suit somebody else! Use their form or some other vehicle to describe flight time as they might want, but which might not be in line with your regulatory log requirements.
The rotary side don't seem quite so 'on the ball' in this regard.
As Intruder says, the debate is endless over here. You have to separate the idea of being the PIC from the act of logging PIC time. Most of the "I can log it" group don't go near as deep as you did, they just say they were the handling pilot, therefore under (e) (1) (i) which you quoted they can log it.
The Part 1 PIC of a 121 flight is required to have an ATP, as is the PIC of of a flight under 135 if the plane is a turbojet, has more than 10 passenger seats or the flight is a commuter operation.
Most airline apps will say they want only Part 1 PIC listed.
The Part 1 PIC of a 121 flight is required to have an ATP, as is the PIC of of a flight under 135 if the plane is a turbojet, has more than 10 passenger seats or the flight is a commuter operation.
Most airline apps will say they want only Part 1 PIC listed.
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Thanks for clearing that up regarding mandatory ATP licences. I'd never got a straight answer from the rotary side.
It is a pity that the FAA have never sought to clarify the logging PIC / acting PIC issue.
Many thanks to all, once again.
It is a pity that the FAA have never sought to clarify the logging PIC / acting PIC issue.
Many thanks to all, once again.
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It's not as unclear as you may think. Acting as PIC and Logging PIC are separate things.
Take the case of an instrument training flight on an IFR flight plan. The instructor is acting as PIC- he's in charge. The student can log PIC if he wishes because he's the sole manipulator.
Let's now look at an airline example. The guy in the left seat signed for the airplane, and is acting as PIC. When the FO is flying, he can log PIC as the sole manipulator.
In the airline environment though, the FO's next employer is unlikely to accept the time that was logged as PIC without acting as PIC. Clear?
Take the case of an instrument training flight on an IFR flight plan. The instructor is acting as PIC- he's in charge. The student can log PIC if he wishes because he's the sole manipulator.
Let's now look at an airline example. The guy in the left seat signed for the airplane, and is acting as PIC. When the FO is flying, he can log PIC as the sole manipulator.
In the airline environment though, the FO's next employer is unlikely to accept the time that was logged as PIC without acting as PIC. Clear?
