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Conditions required for base training (RYR)

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Conditions required for base training (RYR)

Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:00
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Conditions required for base training (RYR)

At EMA today and heard a Ryanair on the R/T at the commencement of a series of base training sorties.

Wx 090/20, RW 09, Vis 6km, OVC 007

When airborne R/T something like " yes cloudbase appears to be about 700' can we radar assistance in the circuit!!!!!!!!", pause from tower who then replied it could be arranged.

Are these the sort of conditions base training can be conducted in or is it simple who the operator is and they have different standards.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:13
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Sounds reasonable weather to do base training in to me - fresh wind down the runway (no crosswind), fair viz and average cloudbase. Ok it's going to take a bit longer to get the landings in as longer final due vectoring.

It's usually part of the brief that the Training Captain talks to ATC prior to these details to give an overview of requirements and the sharing of useful information. Could well be the wx conditions were discussed (maybe the cloud ceiling was fluctuating?) and an (initial) visual circuit arranged subject to actual weather.

Most airlines will have guidance in their Ops Manuals for Training Captains with respect to the conduct of training in specified weather conditions. To an extent these conditions will make it easier for new trainees since they are getting a longer final and therefore more space to line up.

In conclusion, it would seem quite satisfactory to be training in these conditions.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:20
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It might be allowed but it would SUCK.....half the fun is doing it on a nice clear day where you actually get to look out the window and see a horizon. Doing 6 circuits raw data in IMC is a bigger ask I think, then doing it with clear skies no question!
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:27
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In conclusion, it would seem quite satisfactory to be training in these conditions
Oh yes, you seem to know all about it.

I have only conducted base training about a hundred times but I seem to have been doing it wrongly.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:53
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Doing 6 circuits raw data in IMC is a bigger ask I think,
Why does the IMC bit have to be raw data?

Oh yes, you seem to know all about it.

I have only conducted base training about a hundred times but I seem to have been doing it wrongly.
Not at all, fantom, but in our part of the world if you looked for the perfect weather to do base training you'd sometimes be waiting for a long time!

I hasten to add that I have no remit for Ryanair but do know that their Training Captains take the task of base training very professionally.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:57
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Oh wow Fantom your medal awaits. I did my base training on a medium jet years ago in conditions similar to those mentioned. Did my line training captain get it wrong aswell?
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 18:58
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Surely, the point of base training is not to fly a circuit, but to ensure the student can fly an adequate final approach, flare and touchdown. Therefore, it would seem to me that conditions on finals, and whether the visual cues for the flare can be met would dictate whether is is suitable for base training.

I have done base training off short pattern ILS when the cloud base was 700ft but the vis and conditions below were good - it took a lot longer!!

Again, after base training and jet training for 30 years. It's up to the trainer if he can fulfill the requirements of the exercise.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 19:05
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Well, in my last company we had a 700 foot cloud base limit for base training. It is not ideal but it is a very good exercise for the students. If you can't hack a visual circuit in a 700 foot cloud base then perhaps you should not be signed off?

With the advent of JARs and the requirement for 6 landings, it really proved to be very time consuming to do 6 full procedure departures and arrivals and let downs if the cloud base got below 700 feet.

What's wrong with you people nowadays?

Can't you really cope with a visual circuit at 700 feet?

Pathetic.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 19:11
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FireFlybob....when in IMC how do you fly visually? You don't so you're raw data for both aviating and navigating.

Here's my logic.

Manually flying is easy when its clear skies as you have a horizon etc. When I fly a raw data approach now, my scan continuously switches between inside and outside the flight deck. A raw data approach in IMC is harder then in VMC purely due to the lack of visual cues.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 19:31
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VJW, I think you'll find Bob was suggesting sticking the flight director on for the IMC bit.
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 19:49
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Agreed, it is a pain not to "enjoy" the visual circuits, but, given the (lack of) experience of those conducting them, I don't know how much is devoted to "enjoying" the experience vs , just getting it right.

As others have said, the purpose of the exercise is to make visual final app & ldg, not to learn visual circuits, as you will thereafter be discouraged from daring to do that again.

Very often , "students" are encouraged to make the approach fairly short anyhow (if they are up to it) on nice days, to get it all done in the minimum airborne time poss, to save them ( ) money.
This being the case, a visual segment from 700' down to & including the all important landing, would seem to satisfy the requirement.
Think this thread is started by someone not too familiar with the purpose of the exercise (shyte -stirring where Ryanair is concerned being par for the course, but, lets instead discuss social payments if we want to have something bad that we can justify, AND benefit from)
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Old 25th Apr 2012, 21:08
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Unfortunately, unless they are lucky enough to be rostered with a Capt who retains his enthusiasm for poling, & encourages them to likewise do so, they will probably spend most of their time engaging the AP ASAP, & not disengaging it till 500' established on final. . . . . Sad, but true.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 11:25
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Lord Spandex Masher fair enough, I was probably incorrectly under the impression that there was no flight director help during the base training.
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Old 26th Apr 2012, 12:33
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Out of general interest:

Are RYR crews required by SOP to use autoflight in normal line flying? where and when exactly, apart from flying in RVSM airspace?

Thanks.
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Old 28th Apr 2012, 15:32
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Above FL260. In busy TMAs it is encouraged in various ways, sometimes by rules, other times by weary or nervous Captains.
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